Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by Kingarthurhk, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

    I wanted to examine some elements of faith. I see it kicked around the forums quite a bit.

    Hebrews 11:

    "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for <sup class="crossreference" value='(A)'></sup> and assurance about what we do not see. <sup class="crossreference" value='(B)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>This is what the ancients were commended for. <sup class="crossreference" value='(C)'></sup>
    <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, <sup class="crossreference" value='(D)'></sup> so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

    <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended <sup class="crossreference" value='(E)'></sup> as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. <sup class="crossreference" value='(F)'></sup> And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. <sup class="crossreference" value='(G)'></sup>

    <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”<sup class="footnote" value='[a]'>[a]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(H)'></sup> For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him <sup class="crossreference" value='(I)'></sup> must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

    <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, <sup class="crossreference" value='(J)'></sup> in holy fear built an ark <sup class="crossreference" value='(K)'></sup> to save his family. <sup class="crossreference" value='(L)'></sup> By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M)'></sup>

    <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, <sup class="crossreference" value='(N)'></sup> obeyed and went, <sup class="crossreference" value='(O)'></sup> even though he did not know where he was going. <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>By faith he made his home in the promised land <sup class="crossreference" value='(P)'></sup> like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q)'></sup> as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. <sup class="crossreference" value='(R)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>For he was looking forward to the city <sup class="crossreference" value='(S)'></sup> with foundations, <sup class="crossreference" value='(T)'></sup> whose architect and builder is God. <sup class="crossreference" value='(U)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, <sup class="crossreference" value='(V)'></sup> was enabled to bear children <sup class="crossreference" value='(W)'></sup> because she<sup class="footnote" value='[b]'>[b]</sup> considered him faithful <sup class="crossreference" value='(X)'></sup> who had made the promise. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y)'></sup> came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z)'></sup>

    <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA)'></sup> they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB)'></sup> admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE)'></sup> Therefore God is not ashamed <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF)'></sup> to be called their God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG)'></sup> for he has prepared a city <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH)'></sup> for them.

    <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI)'></sup> He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”<sup class="footnote" value='[c]'>[c]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK)'></sup> and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

    <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL)'></sup>

    <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM)'></sup> and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

    <sup class="versenum">22 </sup>By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN)'></sup>

    <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO)'></sup> because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP)'></sup>

    <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>He chose to be mistreated <sup class="crossreference" value='(AR)'></sup> along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>He regarded disgrace <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS)'></sup> for the sake of Christ <sup class="crossreference" value='(AT)'></sup> as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AU)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">27 </sup>By faith he left Egypt, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AV)'></sup> not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. <sup class="versenum">28 </sup>By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer <sup class="crossreference" value='(AW)'></sup> of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AX)'></sup>

    <sup class="versenum">29 </sup>By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AY)'></sup>

    <sup class="versenum">30 </sup>By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AZ)'></sup>

    <sup class="versenum">31 </sup>By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.<sup class="footnote" value='[d]'>[d]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(BA)'></sup>

    <sup class="versenum">32 </sup>And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BB)'></sup> Barak, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BC)'></sup> Samson <sup class="crossreference" value='(BD)'></sup> and Jephthah, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BE)'></sup> about David <sup class="crossreference" value='(BF)'></sup> and Samuel <sup class="crossreference" value='(BG)'></sup> and the prophets, <sup class="versenum">33 </sup>who through faith conquered kingdoms, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BH)'></sup> administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BI)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">34 </sup>quenched the fury of the flames, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BJ)'></sup> and escaped the edge of the sword; <sup class="crossreference" value='(BK)'></sup> whose weakness was turned to strength; <sup class="crossreference" value='(BL)'></sup> and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BM)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">35 </sup>Women received back their dead, raised to life again. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BN)'></sup> There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. <sup class="versenum">36 </sup>Some faced jeers and flogging, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BO)'></sup> and even chains and imprisonment. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BP)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">37 </sup>They were put to death by stoning;<sup class="footnote" value='[e]'>[e]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(BQ)'></sup> they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BR)'></sup> They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BS)'></sup> destitute, persecuted and mistreated— <sup class="versenum">38 </sup>the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves <sup class="crossreference" value='(BT)'></sup> and in holes in the ground.

    <sup class="versenum">39 </sup>These were all commended <sup class="crossreference" value='(BU)'></sup> for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BV)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">40 </sup>since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us <sup class="crossreference" value='(BW)'></sup> would they be made perfect."

    Acts 17:11-12, "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, <sup class="crossreference" value='(T)'></sup> for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures <sup class="crossreference" value='(U)'></sup> every day to see if what Paul said was true. <sup class="crossreference" value='(V)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men."

    Matthew 8:5-13, "When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>“Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, <sup class="crossreference" value='(H)'></sup> suffering terribly.”
    <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him

    <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. <sup class="crossreference" value='(I)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

    <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. <sup class="crossreference" value='(J)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, <sup class="crossreference" value='(K)'></sup> and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. <sup class="crossreference" value='(L)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>But the subjects of the kingdom <sup class="crossreference" value='(M)'></sup> will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(N)'></sup>

    <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(O)'></sup> And his servant was healed at that moment."

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  2. Faith is a tool.

    If God can bring mankind to His faith, God is able to save them.
    If the Devil can bring mankind to His faith, then he is able to destroy them.

    If the politician can make you believe he is the best candidate, he gets your vote.

    Faith changes with more information.
    If you once believed in a candidate, 4 years might have brought you to a place where you no longer believe. Experience changes faith.

    "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

    Faith brings us to a place that we have confidence, through experience, and to a place where the theist, knows God.

    #2 NMG26, Aug 10, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  3. Norske

    Millennium Member

    Faith is a dishonest tool, used by a self-appointed minority to lord it over a gullible, subservient majority.
  4. While Hebrews 11 has good examples of faith the definition is in verse 6.

    Faith consists of two elements:

    1. Believing that God exists

    2. Believing that God rewards those who diligently seek Him

    Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Faith is a gift from God not something that we will from within ourselves.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
  5. Got to love the gift of faith. I differ with you though. We do indeed find it within. It is there and it is available to all.

    Faith is taught to us as we grow up. We learn to "believe" as we learn and grow. We are told what to believe as children. The only way to really find God is to look within and work on the things that we believe. We are responsible in the end for out faith. God does not give us a faith that does not require work. If you believed everything that is taught to you and do not exercise your will to check the results of that faith, you never are truly free from destructive doctrine.
  6. The word faith and believe are used interchangeable often.

    I have faith, but I do not follow any cult. No one can push me around regarding faith.

    Your statement is true, for those that do not own their faith.
  7. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    Do you believe that no deity has ever existed??? :dunno:
  8. Norske

    Millennium Member

    I do not know that any deity either has, or has not existed. :dunno:

    I do not believe that anyone else actually knows whether any deity either has, or has not, existed either.

    I believe the uncertainty over the question has been used, by unscrupulous "clergymen/politicians", to control the lives, beliefs, and actions of the gullible majorities around themselves.

    To demand the time, treasure, blood, and lives of the gullible majority to support their own mortal lifestyle.

    All over an unprovable, superstitious, unprovable "belief" in a supernatural being that they can never seem to actually prove actually exists or not.

    And for what? Always, an unsubstantiated promise that if the gullible majority continues to render up their time, treasure blood, and lives, that they will "earn" a "better afterlife" after they die!

    If of course, the gullible peon, having sacrificed his time, treasure, blood, and all too often, his very life on those promises of his clergy, finds out after he dies that the promises were false, he is no longer in any position to demand a refund, now is he?

    Meanwhile, the clergy who sold him that bill of goods, still here on this mortal coil, remain free to continue to sell the same bill of goods to others of the mortal gullible.

    Day after week after month after year after decade after century after millenia.

    Gods change.

    New religions form.

    Schisms arise within old religions.

    Old religions die.

    But there remain two constants, and two constants only.

    (1) A Religion of some kind.

    (2) Clergymen who make their mortal livings by selling promises about an afterliffe they cannot prove to be true nor be held accountable for if false.

    But, 99.999999% of the gullible majority continue to buy the Kool Aide. Sometimes literally, in the case of the followers of the "Reverend" Jim Jones.

    They sum up the Kool Aide in one word.


    Day after week after month after year after decade after century after millenia.

    #8 Norske, Aug 10, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  9. Faith is available to all, but few accept the free gift.

    John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world.
    1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
  10. Do you understand the difference between these statements?
    "I believe no deity has ever existed."
    "I do not believe any deity has ever existed."
  11. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

    Both elements have a belief associated with them. Adding a negative does not fundamentally change the concept.
  12. Faith is not just about when you die. Faith is for life in the now. A good example is Alcohol Anonymous. To beat his adiction the alcoholic can rely on a higher power for help and recover from his destructive life style. It does not matter if there is a higher power or not.........his faith has healed him.

    Faith seems to be an essential element for growth and exploration in this life. If we never learned to trust our intuition, we would be robots. Through the use of faith we learn to trust ourselves. Some learn to connect to a teacher from within, that they "believe" is not themselves. The belief in a connection to something that is not themselves is a comfort, immediate help, courage pill, and an answer to the questions that only faith can answer.

    We make stuff up. We experiment to see if the made up stuff works or not. If it works, we keep is as part of our experience base. I am a theist by choice. I can not prove that there is a deity or not. I can prove the profit of faith in my life.
  13. Don't be so hard on your neighbor.

    It takes faith to love. It takes faith to smile. It takes faith in humanity to get up in the morning and do the same thing you did yesterday. There are rewards to faith everyday.

    I met a lady who lost her faith in she said. She was addicted to pot and meth. She renounced her religion and acted the fool. She still believed that when she died she was going to either heaven or hell.

    I told her that I did not believe in a future heaven or hell.

    She asked where we go when we die?

    I said I have no idea.

    I did not have the time to help her with her lose of faith in humanity, except to be the best human I could be to her, in the time we chatted. I found the encounter challenging and thought provoking.

    People need tools to question their own faith in order to overcome the blind faith they have been given.

    #13 NMG26, Aug 11, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  14. The difference could be that the first is atheistic and the second is agnostic.
  15. What belief is associated with the second statement?
  16. The second is atheist and agnostic. The first is atheist, but gnostic vs agnostic wouldn't be clear from only that sentence.
  17. You are correct in implying that people should be careful about which leader they follow. The Bible says that we should be as wise as serpents.

    Jim Jones cynically admitted, "I decided how can I demonstrate my Marxism? The thought was, infiltrate the church". A Methodist superintendent, whom Jones met through the American Communist Party, helped him. Before the 1960s, Jones did not reveal that his gospel was actually communism. But he did preach that the US was the Antichrist (sounds like Obama's and Wright's 'church', or like the Black Muslims). He derided traditional Christianity and the Bible as white men's justification to dominate women (recall how this hypocrite used his congregation to find bedmates:upeyes:) and enslave people of color (which is exactly what he did on his Guyana commune before he had all die in mass suicide/murder, as numerous other atheist communists have done).

    The Bible says by their works ye shall know them.

    Question leftist-atheist authority. The life you save may be your own.
  18. They say that faith can move mountains, but if you actually have a mountain to move, you'd best be talking with the Caterpillar Corporation instead of wearing out your knees.
  19. hogfish

    hogfish Señor Member

    Faith is the 'necessary requirement' (red.) to become POTUS.

  20. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

    Odd, I thought it required enormous ammounts of money, a political machine, and a sense of entitlement and ruthlesness.

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