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Ex cop/currently works in morgue

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by G21MAN, Nov 26, 2011.


  1. G21MAN

    G21MAN
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    Very interesting read. I've been seeing lots of posts here about 9mm fans saying it's just as good as .40 caliber. It goes like this...."my 9mm expands equal to 40 cal in gel, and it penetrates just as good, so I might as well use the caliber that gives me more capacity/ease of follow up shots." Well, this guy says that the 9mm skips off the sternum a lot, and that it incapacitates slowly. He recommends a .45 or at least a .40. It's a long read, and I am only half way through it myself. But it's a good read. Go to: Posted - 12/31/2009 : 03:06:46
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    All:

    If you haven't read this aritcle, please do. VERY INTERESTING!! :)

    All the best.

    Curtis

    http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm

    This post is from Curtis at concealed carry forum.

    Thanks,

    G21man
     

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  2. unit1069

    unit1069
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    I read the article for the first time several years ago. Interesting opinion but for everyone who claims 9mm is a "poor manstopper" there's someone else claiming that all handgun calibers are "poor manstoppers". Remember, all calibers fail and all succeed.

    I do subscribe to the idea that a minimum level of power should be a starting point for adequate self-defense and for me that's 9mm caliber. People will nitpick forever about what the best self-defense/ammo combination is and compare it favorably against all others but there are so many variables that come into play in a real shooting that there's really no scientific way to neatly pigeonhole caliber/gun/ammo categories.

    Years ago I was involved in martial arts and the debate about "the best fighting technique" came up now and then. I remember the instructor telling us that whether it be karate, judo, boxing, wrestling, etc ... it was all academic. According to him the person who was able to apply his technique first would likely prevail, no matter the technique vs technique situation.

    In my mind the same thing can be said for successful self-defense using a firearm. If I'm carrying a 9mm or .38 Special and need to defend myself against someone I know is going to severely harm, maim, or kill me I need to successfully apply whatever system I have at my disposal quickly and accurately before the aggressor is ably to successfully apply whatever deadly armament he has against me. If I'm successful it won't matter one bit if the aggressor happened to be packing a .50 caliber Desert Eagle or any other caliber for that matter.
     

  3. Tiro Fijo

    Tiro Fijo
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    Guys, this was determined to be Internet MYTH YEARSSSSSS ago.
     
  4. Ethereal Killer

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    the pistol caliber war is silliness. there is no significant difference between the big three if you use either FMJ or a QUALITY hollow point in the heaviest for caliber bullets (147,180,230).

    The best advice you'll ever get about shooting someone with a pistol is to shoot them repeatedly, quickly and in different places until they stop.

    Multiple, rapid succession hits across different organ systems will incapacitate WAAAAAY faster than any difference in diameter.

    for me more bullets is more chances to kill or more shots to have to make up for misses before reloading. reloading in the heat of a gunfight is the fastest way to lose. ask any competitive shooter about the dueling tree.
     
  5. G21MAN

    G21MAN
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    The 9mm has been seen to skip off the sternum and fragment in the body limiting its penetration to vitals. This probably means that the BG continued to throw lead for a longer period of time before he went down. If you guys want to cling to your gel results and your 9mm's that's up to you.
     
  6. fastbolt

    fastbolt
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    This thing is going around again, huh?
     
  7. Warp

    Warp
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    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    Edited for accuracy
     
  8. unit1069

    unit1069
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    I was taken totally by surprise this morning reading the GATE Self-Defense forum where Mas Ayoob --- responding to a question --- described "center of mass" (COM) as the abdominal area.

    I'd always thought COM was the chest area, which Mas indicated is the proper area to aim initial shots, possibly save for an attacker armed with a knife when targeting the pelvic area may be better to immobilize that specific kind of deadly attack.

    I just love the GATE Self-Defense forum for making me think about different scenarios, along with all the other great info available.
     
    #8 unit1069, Nov 26, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  9. Warp

    Warp
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    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    COM is upper abdomen IMO. However, many instruct to aim for high COM, which is what I prefer.
     
  10. unit1069

    unit1069
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    Mas indicated that the heart area/center chest area is the proper target, which is the exact area I always assumed "COM" referred to. So today I learned COM is a different anatomical description than I had originally thought and I picked up extremely valuable advice about properly targeting a knife-wielding assailant.
     
  11. fastbolt

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    If you try some different drills using either the "traditional lower COM" or the upper COM target areas on your threat targets, you may notice that the "upper" aiming area may allow for more misses to fly over the shoulders when some of the things which can adversely affect shooting skills raise their ugly head under stress. Then, introduce different movement of the threat target (try a ducking/bobbing threat target) and/or shooter movement and see how things occur for different folks.

    Yes, there are critical structures, vessels and organs in the upper area, especially the heart and aortic arch, but the "upper" COM also encompasses a smaller area. Easier to miss. Easier to over-shoot the shoulders and send shots off elsewhere (just as when missing a "head shot").

    Changing the threat targets from among "standard" (wide variance, granted) silhouette targets, to "anatomical/marked" targets, to full-size picture targets (in both B&W and color), as well as obliquely presented picture targets (by which I mean the pictured threat person is portrayed as being partially turned, bladed, etc) ... and you might see even more differences to be considered when trying standard COM v. upper COM. It can be an interesting series of experiments under controlled conditions involving demanding drills.

    Something else to look for is how hits can sometimes tend to cluster around the "weapon" pictured in the picture targets, no matter whether the weapon is held at waist level, at side/shoulder or in the center of the chest. Watch your regular folks look surprised when they see hits seemingly "aimed" at the perceived weapon, without them consciously trying to do so. Don't discount the possibility of this happening to some degree in an actual encounter, either. Seeing a dangerous weapon being pointed/thrust in "your" direction, coupled with the expected physiological responses triggered by the hormonal fear response (and not just strenuous muscular activity & tremors), might work against the successful completion of a desired conscious response in some conditions. This is one of the many reasons we train to ingrain the techniques & skills, not only to be able to short-cut to them under stress, but to try and help "inoculate" us against the unavoidable effects of stress.

    I'll often use the upper COM for a reason, such as a specific "precision shot", in much the same way as I will a "precision head shot", but I'll also take into consideration the specific circumstances that might present themselves. I try to replicate this in some of the simulated threat target drills which might make the upper COM more practical in the given circumstances (horizontal barriers, body armor, other physical cover obstructions covering the lower COM, etc).

    Also, I've invested too many years with my 1-handed indexed/hip shooting technique positioned to place the hits in the traditional COM to try and change that technique at this point. (FWIW, I'm excluding the "speed-rock" technique from this discussion, as I consider that to be a limited application technique/response for a very specific set of conditions.)

    These things are always interesting to discuss while working them out on a firing line where experienced instructors of different backgrounds can exchange ideas and test things out.
     
    #11 fastbolt, Nov 26, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  12. unit1069

    unit1069
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    Thanks for the info, fastbolt

    I'll bet that's right! Unfortunately I'm limited to normal civilian range practice verifying gun/ammo/reliability/accuracy function but have recently had my attention shift towards other important aspects such as good holsters and hand-held lights.

    There's really a lot that goes into successful self-defense and I'm not being facetious when I say competitive self-defense ought to be an Olympic sport someday. In a better world free from the idea that individuals must rely upon government as the primary source of personal security, of course.
     
  13. fastbolt

    fastbolt
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    Have you tried to find some IDPA venues near you? Hopefully, where you might run into some local instructors/trainers who might be willing to work on such things?
     
  14. packinaglock

    packinaglock
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    John 3:16
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    Now that would be interesting.
     
  15. unit1069

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    Of course!

    The Olympic biathlon is cross country skiing-rifle shooting competition. What's the rationale for that competition unless it's to exhibit the skills needed to negotiate travel through adverse environmental conditions while confronting wild and dangerous animal predators? In this day and age with thousands of criminals and Islamofascist terrorists stalking potential victims and infidels all over the globe it makes sense to me to highlight the skills needed to thwart these killers. Let's get the ball rolling on my proposal ASAP!

    The guy who put down Gerald Loughner, the Arizona killer and assailant who shot Rep. Gabby Giffords, was a legal CCW permit holder who happened to be exiting a retail outlet and able to recognize the situation. The mainstream media doesn't like to publicize this, as we all know, just as the same mainstream media refuses to report on the many successful would-be victims every day who thwart their attackers by recourse to a firearm.

    That said, a recognized Olympic event that combined competitive shooting against various scenarios with admission that self-defense is an individual, God-given human right would extend American values around the world and further the historic advancement of individual rights versus the presumed divine right of kings, potentates, czars, and First Comrades who believe in no rule of law.
     
  16. Merkavaboy

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    I just love these "stories" from Coroners/MEs. Problem is that they're looking at bodies post-mortem. They're not at the scene watching people being shot by the bullets in real-time. If a bullet hits an attacker in the sternum and bounces off and the attacker immediately breaks off the attack or collapses without firing a shot or hurting someone, then the bullet(s) have done its job. End of story. Full Stop.

    The role of ANY SD handgun/ammo combo in a personal SD/LEO shooting is not to KILL the attacker, but to cause an IMMEDIATE cessation of the attacker's ability to injure or kill an innocent person.
     
  17. Tiro Fijo

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    So enlighten us. How many 9mm bullets have you personally seen bounce off of a sternum?
     
  18. G26S239

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    Yeah, especially BGs with kevlartitanium sternums. :rofl:

    BTW 8.2 autopsies per day 365 days per year = 2993 autopsies per year. Deadmeat must be uber dedicated never taking weekends off. According to this http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/how-autopsy-take-to-complete if the autopsy is part of a criminal investigation it can take 4 to 6 hours to complete. @ 8.2 per day X 4 hours per autopsy with no days off Deadmeat was working 498.83 days per year. :upeyes: Where is the story about someone dying from a BB shot to the eye in Atlanta G21MAN? I would expect that case to make national news.
     
    #18 G26S239, Nov 26, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
  19. jhoagland

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    That's right!
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    I wanna get a kevlartitanium sternum!

    I just took another look at a B-27 and the X ring really is higher than a technical dead center of mass. Using the top of the shoulders and the center of the hip bones, your true center lowers from the sternum to the xyphoid process. (Yes, I know it's an extension of the sternum proper)
    The reason I bring this up is because I think things are being over thought. How many real world folk are going to draw thoracic triangles and such in a life or death shoot out. You're just going to try and hit the guy.

    Keep it between the shoulders and hips and put more than just one in there. Scales will tip in your favor. After the double tap, re-assess. Still a threat? Bang bang. Assess again. Rinse and repeat. How hard does this have to be?

    It should be kept as simple as possible because the adrenaline dump is a mighty, mighty thing to deal with.

    I think more training should be addressing that.
    Of course as always YMMV.
     
  20. SouthernBoyVA

    SouthernBoyVA
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    The truth of the matter is, you are not going to know how your chosen caliber and load is going to work until you actually shoot someone. And even then, you will only know how it worked for that one specific incident. What this leaves us with is to continually read and learn about ammunition (calibers and loadings), and real world experiences from people who have been there and done that in hopes of arriving at the best possible decision to take for our unique needs. There is one fact that is going to remain a constant in all of this;

    "These debates and outright arguments are likely to continue long after many of us are in the ground pushing up daisies. And there are valid points for each side of the argument to consider. But there is one criteria, actually a set of criteria, that should be not only serve as your prime focus, but give you confidence when these questions and arguments arise.

    Use the gun/caliber/load with which you can consistently, accurately, and quickly deliver rounds to target time after time. If this means a .45ACP, then that is what you should train with and use. If it happens to be a 9mm or a .40S&W, then spend your time and money training with that caliber. The point is, if you cannot do what was stated in the first sentence of this paragraph reliably and with confidence, you probably need to consider trying another caliber and/or gun."
     
    #20 SouthernBoyVA, Nov 27, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011