Elmer Keith & Col. Jeff Cooper On Guns & Ammo For Police! lol!

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by ULVER, Mar 8, 2013.

  1. Ah heck, I just wanted to post up some pics of one of my cool guns.


    Wanna kill these ads? We can help!
  2. SCmasterblaster

    Millennium Member

    I remember Skeeter - what a great man!

  3. WiskyT

    WiskyT Malcontent

    This guy was too lazy to use a 1911.

  4. WiskyT

    WiskyT Malcontent

  5. HKLovingIT

    HKLovingIT Resident Evil

    I have a question.

    Shotguns have safeties and rifles have safeties but when the topic of a safety on a handgun comes up it gets really controversial. Not just in terms of what you guys were saying about training large numbers of people, but the existence of a safety on a handgun in general seems to really bring out the fire in people on one side or the other.

    How come?

    Is it because revolvers don't have safeties and when the transition was made to autos it was viewed with the stinkeye? :dunno:
    #66 HKLovingIT, Mar 11, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  6. WiskyT

    WiskyT Malcontent

    Good question. IMO it has to do with the presentation. Long guns are rarely used in LE and when I have deployed one in the field, there was ample time to turn the safety off. Frankly, and it went against training, I didn't use the safety anyway. The gun is hot regardless, what makes it any safer just because the safety is on? So I'd charge the chamber, keep it in a safe direction, and when done, clear the chamber and put it back in the rack.

    With a handgun, it is always ready. It is cold when it is in the holster and hot when out. Again, no advantage to a safety. Also, handguns are often deployed in an instant. That doesn't mean a safety can't be flicked off, but it means that a higher level of training is going to be needed and that just doesn't happen in most LE circles.

    You can put in the time to be proficient with taking a gun off safe while seaking cover and presenting your gun and getting off a shot while someone is trying to kill you, but it's just isn't going to happen when you have guys spening less than 10 hours a year on the range.
  7. here, jump back in the time machine with me and travel back to the days of my youth when this was the most important issue in LE hand guns. I'll try to put it in a bit of perspective.

    First of all, bear in mind that the first departments to adopt the semi-auto were definitely viewed with the stink-eye.

    There just weren't many useful autos being made in the US. Very, very, few departments were going to take the heat over a single action being carried cocked and locked. Basically that left the S&W 39. in the late 60's that's what there was and it's big plus was that it had its roots in the requirements the Army put forward n the 50's for a 1911 replacement, both in caliber and with the safety.

    The safety was a nice feature though and much was made bout Cops being shot with their own guns since it was a time before security holsters and the most popular holster among those who were free to choose was the breakfront with more emphasis on speed than security.

    Now in those days expanding ammo sucked, sucked bad, it sucked leftover suck. the Hps had such a small cavity, so they would feed in the mil-surp guns that made up 90% of the 9mm market at that time, that the only way they could be counted on to expand is if they were fired at a 90 degree angle into a hard object, like a brick or steel plate. The other option was soft points, but the lead noses had to be hard enough not to lead-up feed ramps so....

    So what you had was ten-year period of spotty results with low cap 9mms in the few departments that bought them, Pennsylvania SP liked the for penetration on cars.

    "Hammer back" wasn't acceptable and there were no DAs in any caliber but 9mm until the Browning/Sig 220 showed up.

    A guy named Lee Jurras came along and decided to start the "Super-Vel" to offer a better performing round.

    In summary,
    For a long time there were few guns (made in America which was critical in those days), that were suitable for LE and for those that were, the ammo sucked.

    The infamous "Miami shoot-out" sped up a lot of developments considerably. but it took a change in attitudes about "Buy American", gun designs and ammo improvements for the ball to get rolling.

    Hope you enjoyed the history lesson :wavey:

    I should also add that the Army trials that led to the adoption of the aopened a lot of closed doors bout autos an European designs such as Sig
    #68 countrygun, Mar 11, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  8. I read the story in the link, but where did it say the name of the officer that pulled the trigger?

  9. It doesn't. Just as the White House doesn't have Obama's name on the mailbox out front, i.e., it's common knowledge.

  10. Common to who?

  11. <<Col. Cooper believed every cop should carry a cocked & locked Colt .45 ACP, with military FMJ.>>

    230gr ball at 830fps out of a 5" barrel will still get most jobs done just fine.

    High tech, costly ammo can do better but........

  12. To those who are smart enough to use Google. :upeyes:
  13. Well, you don't have to be such a horse's ass about it. It's not like you see this in print, or online everyday. I have never heard of it, and I've read a lot of gun stuff over the last 35 years or so.

    Why would someone even think to "google" something like that?

    But, I did like you suggested and looked it up. The 1st 5 threads I read were all about guys asking if it was true or conjecture.... and linking to the brief story you posted above.

    Here's one sample:


    #74 dougader, Mar 12, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
  14. Third search, 12th thread, someone signing in as Pennie Rector:


    #75 dougader, Mar 12, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
  15. WiskyT

    WiskyT Malcontent

    It doesn't. I googled it like you did for a while figuring it was an urban legend. I found a cut and paste of a Bart Skelton article where he maes reference to Jordan having a "tragic" accident and that this was the basis for Jordan taking gun safety so seriously. I also found the same post from Pennie Rector, and reference to an article by Mike Venturino.

    While any of these could be false, I could post a fake article supposedly by Bart Skelton, taking all three of these together it sounds like a true story. At this point, I believe it. I also think if it wasn't true, with all the various threads about it on the the internets, someone prominent would have stepped forward to address it at this point. If it wasn't true, any one of the current gunwriters could dispel it in a short article.

    We have a well-known gun writer in my club. I see him now and then. I probably won't remember to aks him the next time I see him, and he's not exactly a warm and cuddly guy, but I might get a chance to ask him about it.
  16. WiskyT

    WiskyT Malcontent

    It's not common knowledge. I have been reading, shooting, discussing, loading, everything with guns for 30 years and never heard it before.
  17. SCmasterblaster

    Millennium Member


  18. Google?

  19. SCmasterblaster

    Millennium Member

    That sounds a bit like Massad Ayoob.

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