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Duty Ammo: ATF .40 v NYPD 9mm

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by BrokenArrow, Sep 9, 2010.

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  1. BrokenArrow

    BrokenArrow Millennium Member

    807
    0
    Aug 11, 1999
    Lost In Space
    In light of the $40 million ATF contract w Glock and S&W for .40 caliber pistols, thought I would toss this out there.

    ATF Speer 165 GD at @1050 fps from G22
    NYPD Speer 124 +P GD at @1220 fps from G19

    Test info from Speer:

    bare gel
    ATF 12.3/.66
    NYPD 12/.73

    heavy Clothing
    ATF 13.4/.62
    NYPD 12.5/.64

    plywood
    ATF 15.6/.60
    NYPD 16/.51

    Steel
    ATF 17.2/.50
    NYPD 17/.46

    wallboard
    ATF 12.8/.62
    NYPD 12.2/.68

    auto glass
    ATF 10.7/.64
    NYPD 14.5/.67 (typo?)

    Both look OK to me.

    FWIW, the FBIs 147/9 and 180/40 Ranger Bonded are pretty close too.
     

  2. Captain Caveman

    Captain Caveman a.k.a. DaReaper

    1,251
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    Apr 12, 2003
    Colorado
    Were issued 124gr+P 9mm's. I really like how they shoot.
     
  3. AZBru88

    AZBru88

    1,328
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    May 21, 2010
    Arizona
    Amazing results, its surprising how close most pistol calibers really are. Shot placement!!! I understand the other side of the argument, big bullet...big hole! Which is right...probably both. Not every HP will open up, weird things happen to a bullet in a human body! I think this topic could be argued for ever. But very neat results, thanks for sharing...Bru
     
  4. fastbolt

    fastbolt

    11,140
    2,360
    Jun 9, 2002
    CA Central Coast
    Isn't it interesting how much of the R&D that's been lavished on defensive ammunition in recent years has seemingly resulted in a sort of increasing homogeneity of "performance" results when considered in the more common scientific ballistic testing scenarios?

    Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean everything will remain as predictable or as consistent outside the lab environment, but what is?

    I like shooting 9's & .45's better than .40's myself, but they're still just handguns chambered in the more commonly used defensive calibers found in service usage.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2010
  5. Snowman92D

    Snowman92D

    3,888
    10
    Oct 6, 2001
    Indianapolis
    ATF Speer 165 GD at @1050 fps from G22
    ______

    Saw they'd adopted the down-loaded FBI-style version of the 165-grain Gold Dot. The standard factory Gold Dot 165's clocked about 1,170 fps from a Glock 22 last time I tested any of them. If you're gonna down-load the .40 cartridge so the IBO's can shoot it, you just as well issue 9mm's and be done with it.
     
  6. BrokenArrow

    BrokenArrow Millennium Member

    807
    0
    Aug 11, 1999
    Lost In Space
    How the "Fed-Lite" and std 165 GD ( at @ 1150 fps) compare (avg of 5 rounds from G22):

    Bare
    slow 12.3/.66
    fast 10.3/.86

    Cloth
    slow 13.4/.62
    fast 12.2/.66

    Plywood
    slow 15.6/.60
    fast 16.2/.61

    Steel
    slow 17.2/.50
    fast 18/.51

    Wallboard
    slow 12.8/.62
    fast 11.5/.72

    Glass
    slow 10.7/.64
    fast 11.8/.58

    FBI adopted the slower round cuzz it actually did "better" in their test series, that is it had a better "success rate", the number/percentage of rounds penetrationg at least 12 inches. Being easier to shoot was just icing on the cake from their point of view.

    The FBI's latest 9/40 ammo contracts are for Ranger Bonded. I would not be surprised if the ATF, etc piggy backs that ammo contract in the future, or the FBI, etc piggybacks the ATF pistol contract in the future...

    Looking at all this, along w the Speer 125/357 SIG GD results (virtually identical to the 124 +P 9mm), I will be done w it and just stick w the 9 minimeter!

    When I'm not carrying my old Ruger Speed Six in .38 Special that is... ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2010
  7. Berto

    Berto woo woo

    24,185
    2,134
    Sep 15, 2003
    WA
    Oh come on, .38sp isn't as powerful as 9mm.......:whistling:
     
  8. G27Chief

    G27Chief Lifetime Member

    1,650
    121
    Jan 2, 2005
    Southwestern Gawjaw
    :popcorn: Oh bro you did not go there!
     
  9. Snowman92D

    Snowman92D

    3,888
    10
    Oct 6, 2001
    Indianapolis
    Well...that certainly inspires confidence. :whistling:

    I recall several years ago that their tests showed Federal Cartidge's 125-grain .38 Special +P jhp did "better" than Federal's 125-grain .357 magnum jhp. Guys are still laughing about that one.


    I was issued one of those beauties in .357 with the 2.75-inch barrel. Really a sweetheart of a shooter! :thumbsup:
     
  10. pochis

    pochis

    486
    27
    Jul 28, 2008
    with the improvements on ammo design my vote goes 9mm
     
  11. BrokenArrow

    BrokenArrow Millennium Member

    807
    0
    Aug 11, 1999
    Lost In Space
    Yep.

    bare
    125/38 Fed, 12.1/.53
    125/357 Fed, 10.6/.49

    125/38 Rem GS 13.4/.59
    125/357 Rem GS 14.4/.56

    cloth
    125/38, Fed 13.6/.43
    125/357, Fed 11.75/.51

    125/38 Rem GS 14.5/.59
    125/357 Rem GS 20.5/.48

    Not the only oddity. The heavier/slower 9/38s did better than the lighter/faster +P+ 9/357s too.

    The 110-125/357 and 115/9 +P+ were all around 11.5 inches/.50 caliber avgs w a 35% "success rate" for the entire 8 event/40 shot series. The best 147g 9/38s were around 16/.50/82.5 - 92.5%. About the same/better than the 145/357 Mag Silvertip...

    124/9 +P and 135/38 +P GDs work for me. YMMV. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2010
  12. GunFighter45ACP

    GunFighter45ACP

    1,378
    0
    Jun 11, 2005
    D/FW, TX
    modern ammo developments & engineering seems to do alot for leveling the playing field when it comes to similar calibers. IMO, this is a good thing, so if you are starting out from scratch or facing budgetary considerations, cost will be a big factor to consider. With the # of sworn men & women patrolling the streets of NY, it's no wonder that 9mm continues to serve alongside them. BATFE, & most other fed agencies will most likely stay in .40 because combined, they have the #s to keep .40 costs low. There will always be specific units that want/need a different caliber, & 'grandfathered in' weapons/calibers or approved weapons lists will ensure that you'll see some variety in their holsters, but when they start issuing ammo, it's nice to know that across the board, your terminal ballistic results should be similar & officers/special agents won't be 'less safe' if they are in a different caliber then their peers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2010
  13. gatorboy

    gatorboy

    3,978
    107
    Jul 26, 2001
    It's pretty nice
    I'd like to have some of those downloaded 165's for HD.
     
  14. Glockbuster

    Glockbuster

    967
    1
    Jun 30, 2005
    Middle America
    BrokenArrow, that is very informative posts as always, thanks very much.

    I´m really wondering what is the purpose of having this slow 165 Gold dot. There are some serious expansion issues out there on it.

    I´m impressed--always have been--with the 124gr. 9 mm. +P load.

    Could you post this same data for Speer´s GD 155 grain load ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2010
  15. Just get the Speer Gold Dot SB's. Not exactly the same, but...
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2010
  16. BrokenArrow

    BrokenArrow Millennium Member

    807
    0
    Aug 11, 1999
    Lost In Space
    Dont' have complete FBI test series results for that load.

    From FBI

    155/40 GD 1993

    bare 10.7/.84
    cloth 18.1/.57

    155/40 GD 1997

    bare 10.7/.84
    cloth 17.7/.58

    From SDSD 2003

    bare 10.8/.81
    cloth 11/.77
    denim 13.1/.71
    wboard 11/.68
    pwood 21.6/.49
    steel 18.6/.53
    glass 13.2/.60

    From Doc GKR 2007

    bare 15.8/.64
    denim 16/.60
    glass 12/.55
     
  17. BadAndy

    BadAndy

    1,321
    0
    Oct 2, 2004
    Irmo, SC
    Too bad they don't test rounds on death row inmates instead of harmless blocks of gel.