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DoubleTap feeding issues?

Discussion in 'The 10 Ring' started by Chip W, Jun 11, 2012.

  1. Chip W

    Chip W

    41
    0
    May 30, 2010
    PA
    Anyone ever had issues feeding DoubleTap reliably?

    A friend and I recently used up our GSSF/Armorer purchases on a 10mm each. I went with a G20sf and he a G29.
    After various readings on these here Interwebz we both got aftermarket barrels to use lead bullets without issue. He got a KKM and I bought a Lone Wolf.

    I'd shot my G20 with some weak Remington and some Hornady 200gr, no issues at all. That was through the stock barrel.
    (I also have a Lone Wolf .40 conversion barrel and all is great with this too. So the pistol functions mechanically.)

    My friend had not shot his G29 yet. Just slapped in the KKM barrel.

    Yesterday we went to the range to try out some 10mm rounds he got.
    1- 180gr PRVI HP
    2- DoubleTap 230gr Equalizer
    3- DoubleTap 230gr WFNGC Hardcast

    Both pistols ate up the weak PRVI without a hitch.
    The DoubleTap was a different matter entirely. Both of us experienced significant issues right away when trying to chamber rounds. The gun would not go completely into battery, it'd stop about an 1/8th" short of being fully chambered. My G20 at this point wouldn't even rack back. With a hard rap on the back of the slide it'd close and would fire no problem. All spent cases ejected once fired.
    We managed to chew through 50rds of each 230gr load shared between us but it was very sporadic and we had a lot of failures.
    My friend quick went and got his stock Glock barrel to try that, it chambered more reliably but still was not 100% with 1 of the DoubleTap loads.
    I'll send him a link so he can chime in on his specifics but I think that about covers it.

    I've read many times,"You gotta find the bullet your gun likes," but I can honestly say that until yesterday I have never experienced that issue.

    Is it wrong to question the DTap or is it really conceivable that both aftermarket barrels from 2 different mfg's could be whack?

    I have some 200gr Underwood on order to give that a go....hoping we fare better with that. Plus points there are that the stock barrel is fine with it and it's a butt load cheaper too!

    I did like the DTap when it was cycling properly and found a hot load was not anywhere near as fearsome as Internet Folklore might have one believe. I especially liked the DTap Equalizer as it was very accurate and that 2nd hole is pretty neat......shame it wouldn't feed 100%.

    Anyways, any comments questions or suggestions?
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012
  2. phillyd2

    phillyd2

    19
    0
    Sep 16, 2009
    Quakertown, PA
    Seriously, with the G29 factory barrel DoubleTap 230gr Equalizer worked 7 out of 10 times without issue but the Hardcast got caught up trying to chamber every time.

    Again, the 180gr PRVI HP shot perfectly through both guns and barrels.
     

    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012

  3. Chip W

    Chip W

    41
    0
    May 30, 2010
    PA
    Funny guy. :supergrin:
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012
  4. Sierra9

    Sierra9

    452
    1
    Jan 31, 2009
    I've had feeding trouble with DT 230 gr. hardcast in my G29 with a KKM barrel. No trouble with the stock barrel or with the DT 200 gr. hard cast.
     
  5. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

    3,534
    353
    Nov 12, 2011
    Idaho
    I have a number of KKM barrels. One came with a decent amount of free bore and I have no feeding issues with lead, just like my stock Glock barrel. One KKM barrel (a 6" .45ACP) came with no freebore at all, the lands litterally stop right at the chamber. This gun will chamber lead only if the bullets are seated such that no part of the bearing surface of the bullet is sitting above the case mouth.

    Take a look at your KKM barrel, if the lands come right to the chamber ledge (or very close to it), you might give them a call and ask them if they would cut it for you so you have some freebore.

    I have never had a feed issue with any lead with my stock barrels.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2012
  6. Sierra9

    Sierra9

    452
    1
    Jan 31, 2009

    Interesting thought. I looked at my KKM barrel. It's hard to measure, but I have at least 1/8th inch between chamber and lands.
     
  7. Sierra9

    Sierra9

    452
    1
    Jan 31, 2009
    On second thought, Willy, I don't understand how free bore would be the feeding problem with the KKM barrel, since the rounds in question get hung up on the feed ramp before ever entering the chamber.
     
  8. Chip W

    Chip W

    41
    0
    May 30, 2010
    PA
    We (phillyd2 and I) were trying to determine if it was feed ramp issues etc but the fact they fed in leaves that out of he question. It was just that last 1/8" where it wasn't quite in battery. I had a thought last night with regards to how the rounds are sitting in there in relation to the lands.
    We didn't take the barrels out and try to just drop them in to see if they sat in the chamber without any assistance (ie- like slapping the back of the slide to send 'em home). Is this an instance where OAL might come into play? Maybe forcing the hardcast bullet into the lands is what we were doing by slapping the slide back that last 1/8th"?
    Freebore is what the name suggests, portion of a barrel without any lands?
    I'll check my LW later on.

    Edit- About 1/8", maybe a little more before the lands start in the barrel on my LW G20 barrel.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2012
  9. Brian Lee

    Brian Lee Drop those nuts

    9,539
    427
    Jul 28, 2008
    Up a tree.
    I've had feeding trouble with all the 10MM DT I've ever bought. It ALL had visible bulges (bigger than on any other brand I've seen) on the cases where the bottom of the projectile is, and you can hold two rounds together up to a light and see how far from straight the sides of the cases are. And that isn't even my biggest reason for not buying any DT ammo for the last two years.

    My G20 only feeds reliably with ammo that has perfectly straight sides on the outside of the cases, with no bulges, so you can't begin to tell where the bottom of the projectile is. El-Cheapo Remington UMC target loads, and all Hornady 10MM are like this, and feed well in it.
     
  10. zippyhuntin

    zippyhuntin

    112
    0
    Dec 16, 2011
    NE Iowa
    Measure the rounds that don't feed at the case mouth and see if they are out of spec (.423). I've had the same feeding problems in my KKM if I don't get the flare taken out on handloads.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2012
  11. Sierra9

    Sierra9

    452
    1
    Jan 31, 2009

    While I agree with those who say that DT advertized velocities are overstated, I must say that I have never had a feed problem with any DT 10mm ammo out of the stock G29 barrel. And I have shot a lot of every 10mm load they make. Never a problem with my reloads either. Is it possible your barrel is out of spec?
     
  12. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

    3,534
    353
    Nov 12, 2011
    Idaho
    You are correct, the freebore problem won't have anything to do with feed up until the gun is just about to go into battery, it is that spot where I have had feed problems with a KKM barrel. No freebore can mean the bullet sticks into the lands.

    On the feed ramp issue (and other issues like the round sticking nose up into the chamber), I have not had these kinds of feed problems with either my KKM or stock and lead of any kind, although I have not yet loaded any extreme WFNGC bullets for my G20SF or G29SF as yet.

    In general, I have always had fewer problems with my stock Glock barrels. Recently I tryed some plated SWC round for my .45's. My 1911's all had problems feeding these round, regardless of OAL, crimp, etc. My G21SF feed them all without fail (stock barrel).

    PS - 1/8" of freebore should be plenty for lead. You likely only need more if you want to load the bullets particularly long for some reason. My problem KKM barrel has literally no freebore, I have a few 1911's like that as well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2012
  13. Any Cal.

    Any Cal.

    442
    0
    Oct 27, 2008
    It is the gas check on the bullets, on the DTs it is larger than the already big bullet, and the side of the case hits the chamber walls on the tighter chambers. When this happens you can usually see a shiny ring about halfway down the case where it contacted the chamber hard if you eject it before firing. Not too much you can do about it, it happens because the checks aren't fully annealed and spring back after sizing. Use a barrel with a larger chamber, open yours up, or shoot something else.

    Measure it and see, you shouldn't be bigger than .422 max.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
  14. Yondering

    Yondering

    564
    0
    Dec 3, 2011
    This is from interference between the round and the barrel throat (freebore) or the tight chamber. Color one of the sticking rounds all over with a sharpie marker to find out where it's hanging up.

    I'd place my bet on either oversized bullets or the gas check, as Any Cal. states.
     
  15. Brian Lee

    Brian Lee Drop those nuts

    9,539
    427
    Jul 28, 2008
    Up a tree.
    Nope. I got my own inside micrometers and everything. Same problem with the original Glock, Bar Sto, and LWD barrels.

    "Your barrel was made wrong" is the same story they told me after they sent me a bad batch of 9x25 Dillon with improperly made cases so bad, you could roll them across the table and see the bullet wobbling out of center by about 1/64 to almost 1/32 of an Inch & more on a few. It was the neck on the brass that was made out of center, and most would not chamber at all. The first batch they gladly replaced, except they replaced it with another batch that was just as bad. Second time they told me Bar Sto makes their chambers too tight and I needed to buy a LWD barrel, and they wouldn't replace the ammo. Even though I thought it sounded like pure BS, I bought an LWD barrel I didn't need just on the outside chance their total crap story about Bar-Sto not making chambers properly might really be true. Well after measuring it, the LWD barrel is pretty much the same, and the bad ammo won't even chamber in that barrel either - with both barrels out of the gun you can't cram the rounds into the chamber - it's that bad. (I've never shot a round if it because half of them won't even chamber and I still have it all.)

    They claimed when they replaced the first bad batch that they recently discovered they had been given a bad shipment of faulty 9x25 brass and used it by mistake, (I sent every round of it back to them unfired) but when they refused to replace the second bad batch of the same crap, they lost me for good. More because they bull pooped me into buying an extra barrel that was no different, than because they left me stuck with a few boxes of expensive scrap that mostly cannot be fired. That's like 200 bucks they stiffed me for, and I still have the proof in little boxes.

    But remember, my original comments are about 10MM feeding issues, which have been many, and I originally wasn't going to tell the 9x25 Dillon story, except that you mentioned the idea of out-of -spec barrels, and that just happened to be the same total BS story they used about the 9x25 stuff. But I've measured ALL my 10MM barrels too, and they are all fine and feed certain other ammo a lot better than DT.

    Make of it what you will.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2012
  16. Chip W

    Chip W

    41
    0
    May 30, 2010
    PA
    I got the Underwood ammo in mid week and Phillyd2 and I made it out to the range to try some today.
    He also brought along a box of each of the DT rounds to try again.
    With stock Glock barrels we both happily chewed through the Underwood stuff. 200gr TMJ and 200gr JHP.
    We then switched to the aftermarket barrels. I do not recall exactly how Phillyd2's G29/KKM barrel fared (no issues IIRC) but my G20/LW barrel did okay. There was 1 initial round of TMJ that didn't want to load from slide lock. I always rack it back to drop the slide so it had the travel to slam a round in, not sure why it didn't. With a slap of the rear of the slide it went home and fired when I pulled the trigger. It dumped the mag of TMJ after that with no more issues and it also performed without a hitch with the JHP.
    For good measure I threw an additional mag of leftover Hornady 200gr XTP out of my LW barrel without issue.

    So, with the Underwood proven we switched our attentions back to the DoubleTap.
    Once again the DT continued to be funky in the aftermarket barrels.
    I remembered some of what ya'll had said and took out the barrels for my G20 to see how the rounds "dropped" into the chamber.
    With the stock barrel the DT hardcast gas checked would not drop in without help, with a little thumb pressure it'd seat but without it they wouldn't just drop.
    In the LW barrel the same rounds wouldn't seat period, they stood proud by 1/8", the exact same distance that the pistol was out of battery by last week.
    It was also correct that a slight bulge could be seen about half way down the cartridge.
    I have a couple of the hardcast rounds here to snap a few pics of and to measure if I can dig out a caliper.

    Philly had failures to feed with the DT again and I snapped a few pics there also, when I get around to it I'll upload them if anyone is interested.

    We were ready to take "out of battery" photos of my G20, had mags loaded with 5 rounds of the DT hardcast and 5 rounds of the DT JHP but every darn one chambered and fired.....nice, but not what we expected based on prior experience.

    It's a shame to have run into issues and it sure would be nice to have more ammo options but at least we know the Underwood works.

    Another interesting point after reading the input here. Upon comparison of the barrels it was quite surprising just how much looser the stock barrels are compared to the tighter tolerances of the KKM and LW. Gaston really did want it to work reliably.
    Just a shame the polygonal rifling isn't good with lead.
     
  17. Any Cal.

    Any Cal.

    442
    0
    Oct 27, 2008
    It is nice to find out what the problem is, it makes it easier to be more confident that the gun will work.

    As far as the polygonal not working with lead, try it and see. Some loads lead badly, others run really clean. When working up reloads using the DT component bullets, I could shoot a mag full and have the stock barrel as clean or cleaner than it started out. Obviously, there are a host of variables involved, but it might not be a bad idea to shoot 1, check it, shoot a few, check it, check it after a mag, check it after 2, etc. If there is an issue, you should be able to see it.

    Glad you're getting things sorted out!
     
  18. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    428
    0
    Sep 7, 2010
    PRK (Kalifornia)
    I agree. I've heard since Glock was new, that lead bullets were bad. Tens of thousands lead bullets later, I still have yet to see a problem. I haven't heard of any issues with others, either. I've since moved onto mostly aftermarket barrels, but still shoot quite a bit of the lead slugs through the OEM barrels, of several calibers (about 200 rounds just today). If there's something wrong with it, I haven't seen it.
     
  19. Chip W

    Chip W

    41
    0
    May 30, 2010
    PA
    Snapped a few pics...

    The problematic DoubleTap rounds in question. A ridge can be seen half way down the cartridge. I have not put a caliper on it.
    [​IMG]

    The round drops right into a stock barrel.
    [​IMG]

    In the LW barrel it won't drop in, here's how it sits unless I push it firmly down with my thumb. It then wedges in there pretty good.
    [​IMG]

    Here's a shot of the battering my frame has taken in just over 150 assorted rounds. Pretty gnarly. Trying not to get bent about it but it looks cruddy. I swear I can see some frame rail exposed in the gouges.
    [​IMG]

    I know there'll be a bunch of people telling me not to try one but I have a recoil buffer coming in. Might be crap but it's worth a shot for 10 bucks.
    I've seen recommendations for stronger recoil springs, 20# or 22#, and may well go that route with a Wolff Calibration Kit and guide rod. I'll see how my $10 buffer fares first though.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
  20. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

    3,534
    353
    Nov 12, 2011
    Idaho
    I can't tell you this for sure, but it looks like a lack of enough freebore being the KKM problem. That is the bullet hitting the lands before the case mouth hits the end of the chamber. It could be a tight chamber where the bulge from the base of the bullet is hanging things up, but I honestly doubt it. Most of my KKM barrels have a chamber similar to my Glocks, with the possible exception of a little steeper ramp, hence the better head support.

    I believe KKM will throat a barrel for free, maybe send them the barrel and one of the problematic DT rounds and see if throating is the issue.

    On the frame battering, my 22lb and 24lb ISMI RSA's seem to cut down greatly on the battering. I get absolutely zero frame battering with the stock RSA on my newer G29SF. Reason enough for me to have a Gen 4 G20 on my to-do list. Those new RSA's are really Boss.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012