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Does the .357 SIG need to exist?

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by greenlion, Apr 9, 2011.


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  1. Wyocop

    Wyocop
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    I hear that a lot but I recently bought 357 SIG/125 for $20.99. The .40/180 on the shelf next to it was $22.99. Both were Speer Gold Dot.
     

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  2. triggerjerk

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    Treasury Dept. is replacing old Sigs in .357 with new S and W MP's in .40.
     

    #22 triggerjerk, Apr 9, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
  3. Merkavaboy

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    How many shootings has the Treasury Dept (including the USSS) been involved in recently? Just because an agency adopts the .357Sig that doesn't mean that it's the most effective caliber/load available.

    The USBP issued the .357Mag 110JHP (with the 125JHP as an option) to replace the erratic performing 38Spl 110JHP+P+ "Treasury" load, then the 115JHP+P+ in 9mm and then the 155JHP in 40S&W, and all of these loads were highly effective on BGs. And BTW, the USBP is involved in more shootings than all the other federal agencies combined.

    The Sig cartridge is a limited "nitch" cartridge that can be replaced by all the other semi-auto service calibers. It's really a "neither fish nor fowl" cartridge and it's major downfall for LE use is cost of both training and service ammunition. The 40S&W caliber is much better suited for both LE and civilian SD use because of the various bullet weights/designs available in both training and SD ammunition.
     
    #23 Merkavaboy, Apr 9, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
  4. LT1coupe

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    Actually the Sig is a more flexible platform. It can be loaded down to 9mm specs or loaded up beyond 40. If the 357 sig cartridge would've been devoloped 1st, there would be no 40S&W & cost would not be as lopsided.
     
  5. Wyocop

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    ...and some I disagree with.

    True, but the same could be said of any weapon or caliber.

    Of course they were. No one would say these aren't good loads.

    I think that's true. But a many state agencies around the country have gone to the 357 SIG and I don't know if USBP is involved in more shootings than all those state agencies combined. In North Carolina (the tread starter's home state) every state agency went to it: troopers, game wardens, alcohol agents, and state criminal investigators. The reasons usually heard are barrier penetration and duplication of the venerable .357 Magnum's ballistics with the 125 gr JHP. The old magnum round has been amply represented in police gunfights, especially highway shootings.

    I don't accept that as fact. See argument about duplicating the .357 125 JHP.

    Point taken with ammo costs (at least for now) but I don't buy the training part. In my experience, my G33 has less muzzle flip than my partner's G27. Both are "snappy" but the .40 snaps up and the 357 snaps back. I can make a faster follow-up shot with my G33.

    Civilain SD? Maybe. LE? I don't think so. At least not where barriers are likely to be a concern. The versatility argument has it's points in civilian SD but not LE given that most agencies will mandate a certain duty round.
     
    #25 Wyocop, Apr 9, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2011
  6. RustyShackelford

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    > OD Glock 32

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    Regarding the USSS not being in many shootings, I can't say it's their fault that no one has tried to act a fool in a way to warrant getting shot at much less hit with the round. Maybe when some crazy shiz happens to/around the President or some airplane then we can start a thread about how much the .357sig is worth and how that round saved this great nation of ours.

    /take that .45acp!!
     
  7. Aaron1100us

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    Where did you find the specs for .40 ammo? I have winchester 165 grain HP right now, not quite 1100 fps. All the .40 I've found is between 900 and 1100 fps. Energy under 500. RBCD has 77 grain .40 @2100 fps with almost 800 lbs of energy. But I've been told that ammo isn't any good.

    BTW, I want a Glock 33 in .357 sig really bad. Hard to find though.
     
    #27 Aaron1100us, Apr 9, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
  8. fredj338

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    You have to go to the boutique companies like DoubleTap, Corbon & BuffaloBore to find the high vel 40 stuff, but they also sell hv 357sig stuff to. Really, let's just all go back to the 45acp.:rofl:
     
  9. GVFlyer

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    I sometimes transport people who require Secret Service protection. After talking to the Secret Service Agents, I have converted two of my .40 S&Ws to .357 SIG.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  10. mick238

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    ^want to be a little more specific on the reasons?
     
  11. GVFlyer

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    The Secret Service Agents said that their agency testing showed the .357 SIG to have more muzzle energy, shoot flatter while providing greater accuracy, offer more more reliable feeding due to the rounds necked-down design and provide better penetration in objects like automobile windshields.
     
  12. cowboy1964

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    Most calibers probably don't "need" to exist.
     
  13. brausso

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    I carry a G33 with Ranger T's everyday. I feel pretty damn good about that.
     
  14. firemedic1343

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    If my hands were too small for a SF 10mm, then I'd go with the .357
     
  15. Daryl in Az

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    Many newbs also try to use velocity and energy figures alone to decide the effectiveness of a given cartridge.

    They forget things like bullet mass (weight) gained in larger bores, and therefore ignore the added momentum and penetration of heavier bullets. They compare the same light weight bullets for both calibers, and fail to recognize the full potential of the larger bore.

    If you take a .308 case and neck it down to say, .243 caliber, do you end up with a superior cartridge for big game? The answer is "no". You simply end up with something different, suitable for different needs.

    Same concept applies.

    Daryl
     
  16. RMD

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    I prefer it over the .40 S&W 'cause the bottleneck just looks cooler.
     
  17. goosedowner1

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    The Pennsylvania Game commission switched over to G31's several years ago and from what I hear they are very pleased with the round! I have several friends that are WCO's and although they have not had to use the round on BG's they have used it on wounded deer and say it is a devastating round. They also like the fact that it shoots flatter further out then many other rounds.
     
  18. mick238

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    Thanks. Those all sound like good reasons to me.
     
  19. dkf

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    The FMJ .357sig at local shops is usually the worst however select online retailers are bad also. I take it prices you quoted were 20 round boxes which are a huge rip off. I buy GD and HST .357sig online for $30 for 50. If your interested in .357sig buy the ammo online if you don't reload. Currently one of the online ammo companies has FMJ Lawman .357sig for $15.95 for 50 when you buy 500 rounds which isn't bad at all. The cheapest FMJ local to me is $26 for 50 at Cabelas for WWB, local gun shops want over $30 for 50.
     
    #39 dkf, Apr 10, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2011
  20. fredj338

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    Not really Daryl. Bore dia matters, especially when you are talking small bore vs medium vs large. SD also matters, so does bullet mass, so does bullet counstruction. What I was trying to point out the the OP was his lack of understanding that vel & mass alone don't make up for lack of SD or bullet construction. If you are trying to get anyone to believe the 1mm larger bullet makes up for the lower SD, then you would be wrong, it's been proven many, many times over.
    All subjective really. More energy; less than 50ft# means little to nothing, better accuracy, most shooters, even top LEO can't ring the best accuracy out of a service round. Flat shooting; every service caliber shoots the same to 50yds +/-1", since most shooters can't take advantage of that either, also means nothing. Reliability; again, maybe. The 357sig propensity for bullet setback could be more problematic than a straight wall case when rechambering rounds.
    No, the 357sig was designed around the vaunted 125gr 357mag load. It's only real reason for existing. Run the 40 w/ 155gr bullets @ 1250fps & you have a pretty close facsimily of the 357/125gr load. I would be happy w/ either, but I do like the slightly less torque/recoil of the 357sig in sim pistols.
     
    #40 fredj338, Apr 10, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2011
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