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Do you think Barack Obama has the necessary qualities to be President?

Discussion in 'GT Voting Booth' started by jnojr, Aug 28, 2008.

  1. meshmdz

    meshmdz OBAMA 2012

    Mar 12, 2006
    Fort Knox, KY
    Lady Glock, I am not a member of his staff so I cannot tell you how he plans to do it. However, I can tell you where he is going to start... He will raise taxes on those who make over $200,000.00 a year and roll back tax breaks for big corporations who write off taxes as philanthropy.

    You have healthcare right? Then do not worry about universal healthcare. Under Obama's plan, you will be entitled to keep your healthcare plan private if you so desire. The socialized healthcare is going to be enacted for those people who DO NOT have healthcare. How can any decent American be against other Americans having the right to see a doctor when they are sick? It will not take away your private healthcare through whomever you have it with.
  2. bryceban

    bryceban NRA Life Member

    Feb 28, 2008
    Amarillo, TX
    Raise taxes on those making over $200k a year..........Don't get me wrong I don't make that much YET but I do not think it is American to punish and penalize someone for being successful and making a good living.

    Universal health care is not as great as it care is a priveledge not a god given right. A tax raise is in order to provide health care for everyone. Ask someone from Canada how much a six pack of Carona cost them. The quality of health care will go down for those of us who work and contribute to society. Ask a doctor what he thinks about universal health care.

    Think about this-Does some over weight, cigarette smoking, unemployed, wellfare collecting slob have the same right to a heart transplant as your insured children?

  3. flynjump


    Apr 6, 2007

    Bryceban, I was going to make the same comments you just did, I am glad I scrolled down before replying to Meshmdz. Obama will have this entire country banckrupt before his first year is up. All the socialists.. er, Liberals want to do is reward people for sitting home and contributing nothing to society, and make all of us who work hard pay for those that sit home. Why do you think that the leaders of the communist party in America praise Obama's ideas. (So does the President of Iran, Ahmadinejad, for that matter).
  4. Doc Blase

    Doc Blase

    Sep 10, 2008
    Yes. Though I supported a different candidate in the primaries.
  5. Lady Glock

    Lady Glock

    May 4, 2008
    Raising taxes on those who make over $200K will end up bankrupting the country. Do you think those people can truly afford to take up the slack for everyone else? If they are forced to do so, it will cause the largest episode of layoffs ever seen in American history. It's the practice of wealth distribution (from those who have to those who have not) that will destroy our economy.

    To enact any form of socialized healthcare will ruin our current form of healthcare by causing providers to decide it isn't worth it to work in the industry. They will be strictly limited in how much they can charge and strictly regulated by the government in every aspect of their practice. You will see a large group of providers retire and no-one up and coming to fill the void. Hense...waiting for months to see a provider for care. People dying waiting their turn, being turned away because they have too many "issues" that disqualify them for care. Restriction put on our every day way of life just so we can qualify for care.

    People need to wake up and realize that a marxist is not what this country needs. The "change" that obama will leave us with will be the pennies we have in our pocket after he takes everything else for our own good!
  6. kirgi08

    kirgi08 Watcher. Silver Member

    Jun 4, 2007
    Acme proving grounds.

    Those are his views/agenda/s.Not his qualifications.'08.
  7. kirgi08

    kirgi08 Watcher. Silver Member

    Jun 4, 2007
    Acme proving grounds.
    How much real world experience does he have?.'08.
  8. meshmdz

    meshmdz OBAMA 2012

    Mar 12, 2006
    Fort Knox, KY
    How will raising taxes on those that make nearly a quarter million dollars annually "BANKRUPT" the country? Bankrupting the country is exactly what is happening right now with the 2 largest mortgage companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac going under the way they are. The government is intervening (very un-Republican though isnt it???) and preventing a potentially catastrophic economical recession.

    Why do people that ALREADY have healthcare care about universal healthcare? Your plans will still be available and for you if Obama's plan goes as he says it will. Doctors in Germany and England do not make as much as doctors in the USA do, you are correct. However, they are paid approximately $200,000.00 a year. The problem in the USA is that people are greedy and want all they want no matter what it costs them or others. WHat ever happened to helping out those that are the least amongst us? Isnt "Christian principle" something that Republicans harp on and have to count on every election to win? Where is their principle in their policies?

    Are people going to abuse the system? Yes. Will people take advantage of any program? Yes. Does that mean that it is wholistically wrong? No. Universal healthcare will help more than it will hurt.
  9. meshmdz

    meshmdz OBAMA 2012

    Mar 12, 2006
    Fort Knox, KY
    This is an interesting article and touches on some very true aspects of American lifestyle.

    American politicians frequently disparage the systems of Universal Health Care that are so popular in Canada and most of Europe. They claim that America's health care system is the best in the world (rightly), and ask rehetorically, "How would you like to get your health care at the DMV?"

    No one likes a slow government beuracracy, so that argument generally wins the day, carried along by pride in America capitalism. But the problem with that argument is what it doesn't say.

    For one thing, they're not telling you about the billions of dollars American families spend on health care. They're not telling you that half of all bankruptcies declared in 2004 came as the result of medical emergencies--and half of those people had medical insurance.

    They're also not telling you that the American people are sicker--and fatter--than any other industrialized nation on earth. We work longer, and take pride in that. But we also subject ourselves to more stress in the process, giving ourselves less rest and less time to recover. Then there is our diet. But I'll get to that in a moment.

    The bottom line is that America has the highest levels of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and cancer in the world. America has the best health care system in the world because America needs it--and the American people pay the price for it--in dollars, in sickness, and in lost time on the job after sickness, as well as lost time with family and friends leading up to it.

    Universal Health Care provides a marvelous antidote to that situation--not because of the diseases it cures, but rather because of the diseases it prevents.

    Simply put, Universal Health Care empowers governments to act on behalf of the populace. Is something driving up health care costs? Then enact regulations to remove the causes, so they go back down. There are three areas in which the government action has made a huge differences in places like Canada and Europe. We'll look at each of the separately:

    * Leisure time
    * Environment
    * Diet

    Leisure Time

    It seems like a small thing, but leisure time is hugely important when it comes to health. Canada and Europe place hard limits on the number of hours in a day, the number of days in a week, and the number of weeks in a year. Some Americans get a feeling of superiorty because we work harder and longer, but America is paying the price.

    American are more alienated from friends and family than any other culture on earth. We rush through more meals, bolt down more egregiously harmful foodstuffs, and literally work ourselves to death.

    Countries with systems of Universal Health Care are generally more concerned with human welfare at the outset, which is one reason they instituted that system. But, once in place, such a country is also in a position to balance it's Gross Domestic Output (GDP) with the billions it's spending on health care costs. The result is a system that balances the needs of corporations with those of the people who work in them.

    In America, in contrast, the government is more concerned with GDP. Of course, we also spend billions on Medicare and Medicaid, so you think we would wake up and smell the roses. But as large as the amount is, the bulk of health care money comes from individuals and insurance companies--all of which adds to the GDP. So, on paper at least, disease-prevention is not one of government's primary concerns.

    In one respect--occupational safety--America leads the world. America has a right to be proud of that fact. But in other respects, America is far down the list of developed nations in its concern for the environment--and that lack of concern is reflected in our health care costs.

    What it all boils down to, really, is a simple case of short-sightedness. When someone loses an arm or a leg--or even their life--we can see that. So we take the steps necessary to prevent future occurences. As a result we have the most stringent occupational-safety standards in the world.

    But when we foul the air, pollute the water, and fill our foods with dangerous ingredients, the problems generally don't appear until decades later. It was exactly the same with smoking. The long term health consequences were disastrous, but since the short term effects were essentially unnoticable, we let that situation go on for more than a century.

    It is a fact of life that people tend not to weigh the long term consequences of everything they do. Some people plan for their financial future. Most don't. Some people work hard to understand what they need to know to make sure they're breathing clean air, drinking clean water, and eating healthy foods. Most don't.

    In the ideal world, we depend on goverment to take the long range view. In fact, government probably began as an organized effort to store grain against future famine. Taxes evolved from the percentage of the harvest that was allotted for that purpose. If everyone saved, of course, there would be no need for such measures. But the fact are that everyone doesn't save; everyone doesn't plan for the financial future; everyone doesn't make the best decisions with respect to food, air, and water--and society, as well as individuals, pay a big price for the oversight.

    Universal Health Care gives government the incentive to prevent the air and water pollution that precipitates cancer in the unhealthy body. And it gives government the incentive to make sure that people have access to the healthy foods and exercise they need to ward off the obesity, diabetes, cancer, and heart disease that are such high levels in America.

    There are ingredients in the American food supply that are making people sick--ingredients that are illegal in Canada and Europe, for that very reason. But while the Canadian and European systems of Universal Health Care gave those governmental bodies the incentive to outlaw those ingredients for the sake of public health, there is currently no such incentive in America. Those ingredients include:

    * Partially hydrogenated oils. Much cheaper than butter, but 100 times more deadly. Illegal in Canada and Europe, but the best we've managed here is a labeling law that is too weak to remove it completely. In addition the most common hydrogenated oil is soybean oil, it depresses the thyroid, which lowers energy levels and leads to obesity. For more information, see What's Wrong with Partially Hydrogenated Oils?, and Trans Fat Labeling is Nearly Useless.

    * High Fructose Corn Syrup. Massively high levels of sugar, which create an insulin spike that leads to obesity and diabetes. But that's not the worst of it. Fructose breaks down into formaldehyde in the body. In the quanties found in fruit, that's not a problem--especially because the fiber ensures that it enters the system at a manageable rate. But in the concentrated amounts found in HFCS, it's deadly--even more so, because most of the flour-based products that contain it have virtually no fiber whatsoever, so it floods your body in high doses. Then there is the fact that corn oil, like soy, depresses the thyroid. (Both are used to fatten cows for slaughter, because they're cheap and so effective.)

    * Genetically Modified Foods. Health effects unknown. They're a major gamble--part of a huge social experiment. Illegal in Europe and Canada. We can't even get them labeled in America.
    * Fluoroide. A by-product of aluminum production that cities are paying to put in their driinking water. Do you remember how to spell A-l-z-h-e-i-m-e-r-'s? The last city in Europe that fluoridated their drinking water (a city in Switzerland) recently stopped. There is some evidence that fluoride will bond with the surface of a child's tooth, strengthening the enamel. There is therefore some potential justification for using it in children's toothpaste. There is no justification whatever for using it in adult dental products, and absolutely zero reason to be ingesting the stuff. (Perhaps you recall that there was a study showing a city that reduced the number of cavities they had when their water was fluoridated. Less well known is the nearby control city whose water wasn't fluoridated. When their cavity levels were found to be lowered as well, they were dropped from the study! --Albert Carter, "The Healthy Cell Concept", Chapter 11 of The New Miracles of Rebound Exercise.)


    When it comes to the quality of the food, the air, the water, and lifestyle, Canada and Europe consistently rank ahead of America. American prides itself on being more productive, but pays a huge cost for doing so. The additional productivity gives us a somewhat better standard of living, at the cost of a greatly reduced quality of life.

    Government looks at GDP, and sees big numbers. But a big part of those numbers comes at the cost of human suffering and tragedy, as people spend their last dime attempting to recover from diseases that they should never have incurred.

    With Universal Health Care, government begins to account for health problems properly--as a reduction in available resources, instead of as a contribution to GDP. And that fact may be the single most important of Universal Health Care, even if you ever use it. In fact, the very existence of Universal Health Care may give you the best possible chance that you'll never need it.
  10. meshmdz

    meshmdz OBAMA 2012

    Mar 12, 2006
    Fort Knox, KY
    Some other interesting reading on myths surrounding univ. healthcare.

    1. Why doesn’t the United States have universal health care as a right of citizenship? The United States is the only industrialized nation that does not guarantee access to health care as a right of citizenship. 28 industrialized nations have single payer universal health care systems, while 1 (Germany) has a multipayer universal health care system like President Clinton proposed for the United States.

    2. Myth One: The United States has the best health care system in the world.

    * Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990

    * Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960

    * Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.

    * Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana

    * Fact Five: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations.

    * Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nation

    3. Myth Two: Universal Health Care Would Be Too Expensive

    * Fact One: The United States spends at least 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care

    * Fact Two: Federal studies by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting office show that single payer universal health care would save 100 to 200 Billion dollars per year despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits.

    * Fact Three: State studies by Massachusetts and Connecticut have shown that single payer universal health care would save 1 to 2 Billion dollars per year from the total medical expenses in those states despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits

    * Fact Four: The costs of health care in Canada as a % of GNP, which were identical to the United States when Canada changed to a single payer, universal health care system in 1971, have increased at a rate much lower than the United States, despite the US economy being much stronger than Canada’s.

    * Conclusion: Single payer universal health care costs would be lower than the current US system due to lower administrative costs. The United States spends 50 to 100% more on administration than single payer systems. By lowering these administrative costs the United States would have the ability to provide universal health care, without managed care, increase benefits and still save money

    4. Myth Three: Universal Health Care Would Deprive Citizens of Needed Services

    * Fact One: Studies reveal that citizens in universal health care systems have more doctor visits and more hospital days than in the US

    * Fact Two: Around 30% of Americans have problem accessing health care due to payment problems or access to care, far more than any other industrialized country. About 17% of our population is without health insurance. About 75% of ill uninsured people have trouble accessing/paying for health care.

    * Fact Three: Comparisons of Difficulties Accessing Care Are Shown To Be Greater In The US Than Canada (see graph)

    * Fact Four: Access to health care is directly related to income and race in the United States. As a result the poor and minorities have poorer health than the wealthy and the whites.

    * Fact Five: There would be no lines under a universal health care system in the United States because we have about a 30% oversupply of medical equipment and surgeons, whereas demand would increase about 15%

    * Conclusion: The US denies access to health care based on the ability to pay. Under a universal health care system all would access care. There would be no lines as in other industrialized countries due to the oversupply in our providers and infrastructure, and the willingness/ability of the United States to spend more on health care than other industrialized nations.

    5. Myth Four: Universal Health Care Would Result In Government Control And Intrusion Into Health Care Resulting In Loss Of Freedom Of Choice

    * Fact One: There would be free choice of health care providers under a single payer universal health care system, unlike our current managed care system in which people are forced to see providers on the insurer’s panel to obtain medical benefits

    * Fact Two: There would be no management of care under a single payer, universal health care system unlike the current managed care system which mandates insurer preapproval for services thus undercutting patient confidentiality and taking health care decisions away from the health care provider and consumer

    * Fact Three: Although health care providers fees would be set as they are currently in 90% of cases, providers would have a means of negotiating fees unlike the current managed care system in which they are set in corporate board rooms with profits, not patient care, in mind

    * Fact Four: Taxes, fees and benefits would be decided by the insurer which would be under the control of a diverse board representing consumers, providers, business and government. It would not be a government controlled system, although the government would have to approve the taxes. The system would be run by a public trust, not the government.

    * Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care administered by a state public health system would be much more democratic and much less intrusive than our current system. Consumers and providers would have a voice in determining benefits, rates and taxes. Problems with free choice, confidentiality and medical decision making would be resolved

    6. Myth Five: Universal Health Care Is Socialized Medicine And Would Be Unacceptable To The Public

    * Fact One: Single payer universal health care is not socialized medicine. It is health care payment system, not a health care delivery system. Health care providers would be in fee for service practice, and would not be employees of the government, which would be socialized medicine. Single payer health care is not socialized medicine, any more than the public funding of education is socialized education, or the public funding of the defense industry is socialized defense.

    * Fact Two: Repeated national and state polls have shown that between 60 and 75% of Americans would like a universal health care system (see The Harris Poll #78, October 20, 2005)

    * Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care is not socialized medicine and would be preferred by the majority of the citizens of this country

    7. Myth Six: The Problems With The US Health Care System Are Being Solved and Are Best Solved By Private Corporate Managed Care Medicine because they are the most efficient

    * Fact One: Private for profit corporation are the lease efficient deliverer of health care. They spend between 20 and 30% of premiums on administration and profits. The public sector is the most efficient. Medicare spends 3% on administration.

    * Fact Two: The same procedure in the same hospital the year after conversion from not-for profit to for-profit costs in between 20 to 35% more

    * Fact Three: Health care costs in the United States grew more in the United States under managed care in 1990 to 1996 than any other industrialized nation with single payer universal health care

    * Fact Four: The quality of health care in the US has deteriorated under managed care. Access problems have increased. The number of uninsured has dramatically increased (increase of 10 million to 43.4 million from 1989 to 1996, increase of 2.4% from 1989 to 1996- 16% in 1996 and increasing each year).

    * Fact Five: The level of satisfaction with the US health care system is the lowest of any industrialized nation.

    * Fact Six: 80% of citizens and 71% of doctors believe that managed care has caused quality of care to be compromised

    * Conclusion: For profit, managed care can not solve the US health care problems because health care is not a commodity that people shop for, and quality of care must always be compromised when the motivating factor for corporations is to save money through denial of care and decreasing provider costs. In addition managed care has introduced problems of patient confidentiality and disrupted the continuity of care through having limited provider networks.

    8. Overall Answer to the questions Why doesn’t the US have single payer universal health care when single payer universal health care is the most efficient, most democratic and most equitable means to deliver health care? Why does the United States remain wedded to an inefficient, autocratic and immoral system that makes health care accessible to the wealthy and not the poor when a vast majority of citizens want it to be a right of citizenship?

    Conclusion: Corporations are able to buy politicians through our campaign finance system and control the media to convince people that corporate health care is democratic, represents freedom, and is the most efficient system for delivering health care

    9. What you can do about this through your state Green Party

    * Work to pass a single payer, universal health care bill or referendum in your state. State level bills and referenda will be most effective because a federal health care system might in fact be too bureaucratic, and because it is not politically realistic at this time.

    * Bills or referendum must be written by and supported by health care providers for the legislature to take them seriously. It is thus imperative to form an alliance with provider groups. The most effective provider group to go through is Physicians For A National Health Program which has chapters in every state (see hand out for partial listing of contact people). A number of states already have organized single payer efforts: Massachusetts, California, Washington, Oregon, New Mexico, and Maryland. Join with them.

    * A first step is to contact state representatives from PNHP and offer to join with them to write and support a bill bringing single payer, universal health care to your state if this has not already been done. The Connecticut and Massachusetts Bills can be used as models to make this task easier (email us at and we will send you copies of the bills). A referendum is another way to go, in which case the California referendum can be used as a model.

    * A second step is to contact state legislators and find a group who are willing to sponsor such a bill.

    * A third step is to create a coalition of groups to work together to support and publicize this work, or to try to bring together existing groups to work together on this project. Labor unions, progressive democratic groups, Medicare/Senior Advocacy groups, the Labor Party, the Reform Party, UHCAN, existing health care advocacy groups, and state health care provider groups are all imporatnt to work with and get to join such a coalition. The state medical society and state hospital association are critical to work with in order to get any legislation passed. Try to get them to work with you to design a new model for health care delivery. They will be particularly concerned about who will control the system, and be very mistrustful of government. A public trust model with participation by providers, hospitals, business, the public and government is like to be much more acceptable to them than a pure government system. Emphasize doing away with managed care, and get them to try and work with you to find other ways to control costs (necessary to convince politicians) such as quality assurance standards, which will also protect them from malpractice

    * A fourth step is to give talks in support of your bill or referendum where ever possible. Senior groups, medical staffs, church groups, high school assemblies, and labor unions are particularly good sources. Excellent materials including slides, a chart book and videos are available through PNHP.

    * A fifth step is to raise money through fund raisers, contributions and benefits held by entertainers. Benefits are particularly useful in bringing out people who you can inform about single payer, universal health care and your efforts.

    * A sixth step is to develop media access. The creation of videos that can be shown on local cable access TV stations is very effective. Newspaper articles, letters to the editor, and articles by the press are critical. Radio interviews and radio talk shows are important.

    * Getting the public to write and call their state representatives in support of a proposed bill is critical, as is coordinating testimony at a public hearing.

    * Because the data about single payer universal health care are so revealing of the problems with corporate America, and because the US citizenry is so concerned and dissatisfied with our health care system these efforts may yield surprisingly positive results and be helpful in establishing the Green Party in the US as a party of the people, by the people and for the people.
  11. kirgi08

    kirgi08 Watcher. Silver Member

    Jun 4, 2007
    Acme proving grounds.
    That does not answer my main querry.As long as courts accept/listen to spurious lawsuits in this country,A/n UHC system is futile.I'm gonna pick thru your post/s/Time.

    You seem ta forget the the Houses run this country,His policies are all dependent on the seated Congress/Senate whims.As ta the tax hike bankrupting the country,those GREEDY mortgage brokers did FINE without a/n tax hike..Gov should have let those institutions crash and burn.Instead of throwing good money after bad.Now if that $700Billion bailout happens that will be a/n cost ta each person of $100,000 ta pay.There is no Saint in this Fiasco.Rep/Dem/Lib they are all GUILTY of A/GREED-B/DENIAL till it was too late.

    Granted my horses didn't get out the gate and there are enough places ta place blame in this mess.

    Obama doesn't have the world view experience ta deal with that crap goin on in Georgia./Pick a region.

    The Office of the President needs ta take care of our interests worldwide.

    The state Governors need ta take care of there own.'08.
  12. Lady Glock

    Lady Glock

    May 4, 2008
    You start expecting those people to support the rest of the country and they will eventually go broke or close up shop. THAT is what will bankrupt the country.

    Universal health care is but one tiny step from socialized health care. I don't want the government making the decisions on who deserves to be treated and who doesn't.
    Helping people should be a personal decision, charity begins in the heart, not at gun point. The government has no right to take my money and give it to the poor. The poor have a choice, they can choose to work to better themselves instead of sitting on their duffs expecting a handout!

    There isn't one person in this country who hasn't had the same opportunity as any other in being able to make themselves wealthy with their own sweat and imagination.


    Jul 16, 2008
    JBLM, WA
    Lady Glock, you're pretty naive w/ your thoughts. our country is FULL of people who dont have the same opportunities, for wealth or many other things. its these type of broad-brush beliefs that divide our country so much. and also the reason that AMERICA needs a president that is FULL aware of all problems that need fixing.
    OBAMA in 2008, YES WE CAN!!!
  14. cookekdjr


    Jan 6, 2006
    I just have to say what a nice surprise it is to see how this conversation has gone since I left. That is all.
  15. meshmdz

    meshmdz OBAMA 2012

    Mar 12, 2006
    Fort Knox, KY
    Its a good thing that both sides of the aisle are present here on GT.
  16. SigPro2022


    May 15, 2007
    A vote for Obama is a vote for gun control. Period.......
  17. Lady Glock

    Lady Glock

    May 4, 2008
    Everyone has the same opportunity to make it rich on their own. All they have to do is apply themselves. Go to work, earn their own way. Quit expecting the government to give them the freebies ('s not free, it came from someone's hard work). If they would get off their lazy duffs and work, they may be able to earn the 200,000 needed to get in the top bracket and start paying for all the other lowlifes who sit around waiting for their welfare checks.:steamed::dunno:
  18. meshmdz

    meshmdz OBAMA 2012

    Mar 12, 2006
    Fort Knox, KY
    People that vote for the President of the USA based on ONE issue are foolish, in my opinion.
  19. kirgi08

    kirgi08 Watcher. Silver Member

    Jun 4, 2007
    Acme proving grounds.
    Look at your Sig Line.You might as well set up for registration and then CONFISCATION.'08.