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Do magazine capacity limits make sense to regulate by law?

Discussion in 'Gun-Control Issues' started by ithaca_deerslayer, Jan 25, 2011.


  1. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer
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    Let me try to be open minded and present an anti-gun view point to see if any of us on GT think limiting magazine capacity could be a good idea.

    My personal view is there should be no magazine limits. But let's put the personal views aside for a moment to see if the anti-gun view has any merit.

    Two scenarios.
    A. Joe Killer has 4 magazines, each holding 10 rounds. He has one 9mm evil black semi-auto handgun, and he wants to kill as many as he can at the local mall. He draws his handgun from beneath a trench coat and shoots as many people as he can. He runs out of ammo after 10 rounds, then changes to a fresh magazine and so on, until he is either forcibly stopped or shoots all 40 rounds.

    B. Same Joe Killer situation, but now with 1 magazine of 40 rounds. Since the magazine is made by RELIABLETECH, it does not jam. He draws his handgun and shoots as many as he can, until he is either forcibly stopped or shoots all 40 rounds.

    Questions.
    1. Are more people likely to be killed and wounded in scenario B than in A?
    2. If yes, then is it worth it in terms of public safety versus freedom to pass a 10 round magazine limit law?

    My own analysis:
    I believe that on average, more people would be killed or wounded in scenario B than in A. This is because scenario A allows more instances for people to either flee or to forcibly intervene against Joe Killer.

    I do not believe the difference in killing and wounding between A and B is enough impose upon our freedoms. Thus, I do not believe a magazine limit should be the outcome.

    But what if there was a scenario C with a 250 round belt-fed magazine and a fully automatic gun of some sort. If such a rig were legal to carry, would Joe Killer be able to kill enough people to change my mind?

    Since I am pro-gun, I'd like it to be legal to own a fully automatic gun firing from a 250 round belt-fed magazine. I'd want it legal to carry such a gun around. What would keep Joe Killer from legally taking such a rig to a mall and getting ready to kill as many people as he could?

    Scenario C is the one I struggle with. Many will say it is too hypothetical. But I believe that if enough people voted like me, it would be legal to own and carry such a rig.
     

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    #1 ithaca_deerslayer, Jan 25, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2011
  2. Cody Jarrett

    Cody Jarrett
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    The whole concept is stupid. I'm in NYS where 10 rounds is the law. So I carry an extra mag. That reload barely slows me down. If the 10 round rule should ever become law, the next legislation will make carrying an extra mag illegal.

    Remember, when you're out of Bud, you're out of beer. Same holds true for ammo.
     

  3. Jerry

    Jerry
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    Here’s the rub to both scenarios. A. Joe Killer has a gas tank that holds 10 gallons. He wants to kill as many as he can at the local mall. He starts his car and runs over as many people as he can. He runs out of gas after 2 hours, then changes to a reserve tank and so on, until he is either forcibly stopped or runs out of gas.

    B. Same Joe Killer situation, but now with a tank that holds 100 gallons. Since the automobile is made by RELIABLETECH, it doesn't stall or overheat. He drives his car over and threw as many as he can, until he is either forcibly stopped or runs out of gas.

    Perhaps we need to limit fuel tank size. :upeyes:

    What is my point? It does matter if a nut job can get a gun or not or if it’s limited to 1 round or holds 1000, the gun nor the magazine capacity is the problem… the nut job is. And they will do what they will do with or without guns or “standard capacity” magazines. :faint:
     
    #3 Jerry, Jan 25, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2011
  4. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer
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    I live in NYS, too. Fortunately I have pre-ban full capacity mags :) The bills hitting Congress would try to outlaw the transfer of such mags :(

    If one reload barely slows you down. Would 3 reloads still barely slow you down? And is the average Joe Killer as good with a quick reload as you and I are?

    Still, however, your position appears to be that there would be no difference in violence between scenarios A and B. Thus no need for mag limits :)
     
  5. dkf

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    So "Joe" has no problem murdering as many people as he can (obviously illegal) however he wants to comply with the 10rd mag law. Think not.

    Full capacity mags are out there by the millions and people have the technology and the brainpower to make high capacity mags. Whats next only allowing ammo to be sold in 10rd boxes.
     
  6. ithaca_deerslayer

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    "Joe" is a psycho, and will likely use whatever is available. He'll probably go to a gun store and legally purchase the gun and magazines there.

    NYS adopted the 10 round limit in 1994. If you walk into a gun store today, you can still find full capacity magazines, but they cost more and aren't always available.

    The federal mag limit bill the antis are pushing now does not allow transferring ownership. That would make it even more difficult to find full capacity magazines. They wouldn't be available in the gun store that "Joe" might walk into.
     
    #6 ithaca_deerslayer, Jan 25, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2011
  7. 1gewehr

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    Opposing scenarios:

    A: -
    Granny Applegate has arthritis, so reloading can be a bit slow. She bought a new FN FiveSeven and a couple of aftermarket 30rd magazines to compensate for this problem. One night a gang of twelve dope addicts is bemoaning their lack of cash to get their next fix. One of them remembers when his parents forced him to help Granny Applegate carry in her groceries, he saw a huge silver tea service. So they head out to rob and beat up the old lady.
    Who in their right mind would mind if she fired twenty-eight rounds without reloading when the scumbags came bursting in?

    B: -
    Bob has a carry permit, but in his state only 10rd mags are permitted. He carries one loaded rd mag in his Glock 19, with another in his pocket.
    One fine Saturday afternoon, he is in the mall with his family when six terrorists armed with AKs and shotguns burst into the mall and start shooting indiscriminately.
    Bob immediately starts to shoot back. After Bob takes out one of the terrorists, the rest realize they are under fire. They immediately rush under cover and return fire. bob exchanges shots for a minute and then looks in horror at the Glock in his hand. The slide is locked back, and he has fired out both magazines! The terrorists quickly realize what happened and run over and kill Bob and his family before continuing their terror spree.

    Letting politicians make critical decisions for you is as smart as walking through toxic medical waste barefoot.
     
  8. ithaca_deerslayer

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    If I may summarize, I believe you are saying the good guys might need full capacity magazines for a variety of scenarios. I agree with you.

    The anti-gun people are only focused on Joe Killer, and how he was tackled after trying to reload. They figure if he had to reload at 10, then there'd be less carnage than letting him legally use 30 or 40 round mags.
     
  9. XDMerciless

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    This reminds me of something I saw while flipping through the channels, on MSNBC - The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell. A congressman from Arizona, Trent Franks, was asked if he wished Lougher had not had a high capacity magazine, and the anchor prefaced the question with a comment that if Loughner had to reload, the people whom tackled him down could have reacted sooner, and thus lives could have been saved. The congressman replied that he wished Lougher never had a gun in the first place, the politicization of the tragedy from the left, and used an analogy of remedying DUI, by limiting the fuel tank. And then discussion evolves to conceal carry, with Trent Franks making a previous comment that he wished someone with a conceal carry license been there. The anchor makes the contention that even police officers miss their targets, always miss :upeyes:, and thus he argues is extremely reckless to have more guns there. Well here, is the video without me paraphrasing the words:

    (Commentary starts at 1:12)
    http://thelastword.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/19/5877829-the-battle-over-bullets-on-last-word

    My View:
    After tragic events like what we saw in Arizona occur, we shouldn't be surprised that there are discussions regarding if we should change our gun laws. Although there are still lingering questions about why an individual would commit such violent or heinous act, the media often shifts focus from the psychological or social economic reasons to the the weapon used. It's suddenly portrayed as if the weapon is solely at fault, that if Congress would pass a gun ban criminals and deranged individuals would suddenly vanish, intercity violence would disappear, or in this particular case restricting the capacity of the magazines would be the key solution. No matter what your position is on gun control, the cold hard fact is there is little the government can do to stop the deranged and mentally disturbed. What it took were the heroes we saw in Tuscon, individuals, people whom fought back, people like those on Flight 93, people like those that refuse to be victimized - we need far more these individuals than any gun control measure could ever accomplish. Yet it could be argued that these string of shooting massacres is unfortunately uniquely American. Are there merits to gun control advocates position that it is too easy for someone to gain access to a firearm? If so, what can we do to prevent the next tragedy?
     
  10. at_liberty

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    I don't think this is really any different than drum magazines for Thompson submachine guns. That mag limit effectively eliminated that gun as a favorite for gangsters. I have heard many of the arguments but what is really suspect and hard to defend is someones motives for wanting to own an extremely high cap mag. Yeah, we like to blow stuff up, but a restriction is not really going to hurt anyone. The real danger is amendments hung on such a bill and any precedent it sets for later action. The fundamental problem is that the law making process has no real integrity. Thus we try to quell all efforts to pass gun related restrictions.
     
    #10 at_liberty, Jan 25, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2011
  11. Jerry

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    So wanting the ability to defend against the government is suspect? Are we going to limit the military and law enforcement magazine capacity also? Are the motives of The Forefathers enumerating the Second Amendment suspect also? The Second isn’t about hunting, target shooting or wanting to blow things up. What is suspect is the motives of those wanting to limit our right to the same weaponry as solders and law enforcement.
     
    #11 Jerry, Jan 25, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2011
  12. HotRoderX

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    to me saying Joe psycho will limit him self only to the local gun shop is very very narrow sited. There is always the possibility for Joe psycho to use the Internet. Do I think a 10rnd mag limit is smart not even in the least. All a law like that will do is punish law abiding citizens while the criminals will continue to get a hold of what ever they please.
     
  13. Cody Jarrett

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    You're lucky to have the mags. I have one pre-ban but don't carry it. My experience is that "Joe Killer" is generally a bad shot. In NY he generally carries illegally and doesn't get a chance to practice. A couple of quick shots in a vacant lot and then he has to scoot before the police arrive. A well trained licensed shooter has put many thousands of rounds downrange. He has taken PP courses. His techniques are refined and he is an experienced shot. He knows how to move. This type of honest citizen usually ends the encounter more quickly... hopefully with 2-3 shots.

    But if I need 2-3 reloads I'm possibly fighting a whole group and yes, it would slow me down some. But if you practice regularly with both tactical and empty reloads it becomes a smooth operation. As an instructor I teach slow is smooth and smooth is fast... gross motor skills only. For the trained shooter; distance is his friend so his tactical approach may include creating distance while shooting to cover. However, I would still like to carry more than 10.
     
    #13 Cody Jarrett, Jan 25, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2011
  14. Cody Jarrett

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    (A) - A: Granny only need drop one or two. In my experience the rest scatter, leaving their fallen comrade to rat them out for his plea deal. Indians carried off their dead but dope heads run.

    (B) - Bob's tactics got him shot. You don't take on several terrorists with AK's if you only have a 9mm and 20 rounds unless you're moving and shooting to escape. As Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch teaches, "If you're not shootin', you should be loadin'. If you're not loadin', you should be movin', if you're not movin' your better get movin' or some scumbagg's gonna cut your head off and put it on a pole." And don't forget to ziggity-zag.

    :wavey:
     
    #14 Cody Jarrett, Jan 25, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2011
  15. Palmguy

    Palmguy
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    Boom.

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    Just curious as to the origin or meaning (to you) of your screenname.
     
  16. 1gewehr

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    You can second-guess scenarios all you like. Fact is, when you are out of ammo, you are done shooting. What about the handicapped? They may have limited movement ability. Are they less deserving of self-defense? If a Glock is all you have, you would advocate running away and leaving your family to die? And restricting magazine capacity is pointless and stupid.
     
  17. BuckyP

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    :goodpost:

    Bingo. These people have a fixation on taking peoples guns away. Typically they want to eliminate any self sufficiency, like the ability to defend ones self, to make for more reliance on a bigger government. It's all about power and control. This "for our own safety" or "for the children" doesn't fly, when every they should be doing to protect us like securing the borders or tougher sentences / longer jail time for violent criminals is just not on their agenda.
     
  18. dkf

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    "Joe" is a psycho, and will likely use whatever is available. He'll probably go to a gun store and legally purchase the gun and magazines there.

    "Joe" would use the method that is easiest to obtain what he is after. Take the local shop out of the equation and he will go to the next easiest method. More than likely "Joes" acts would be premeditated just like the recent Tuscon incident was.

    NYS adopted the 10 round limit in 1994. If you walk into a gun store today, you can still find full capacity magazines, but they cost more and aren't always available.

    So in other words the law was pretty much pointless. NY residents can still drive to a neighboring state and pick up high capacity mags or get them shipped in from a private party willing to do so. Then you have the people moving into NY from other states. Yep sounds like NY dem idealogy to me. Runs right up there with the thinking that only LEOs should own guns which a former NYC commissioner supports with a passion.

    The federal mag limit bill the antis are pushing now does not allow transferring ownership. That would make it even more difficult to find full capacity magazines. They wouldn't be available in the gun store that "Joe" might walk into.

    Whats from keeping the FFL from replacing the high cap mags in a gun they have come in with 10 rounders and selling the high cap mags seperately? The mags have no serial numbers and ways to track them.

    I would have described it more harshly. Ignorant, moronic and stupid were the more civil things that popped into my mind.
     
    #18 dkf, Jan 26, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
  19. BuckyP

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    This begs to ask another question. As individuals, most of us buy magazines for our own or family use. (Admittedly, it's reasonable to think others may have bought them as investments after the 1994-2004 oppression.) However, what is to become of the private store, wholesaler, or online warehouse that specifically bought the magazines for resale? Should it be expected that they should be allowed to sell them? Should the government reimburse them for their losses? Think about a Brownells or CDNN that has 10s of thousands of magazines in inventory? That is some pretty serious money that is now in question!!
     
  20. TexasFats

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    The proposed magazine capacity limits are like any other gun restriction that will be put forward for the forseeable future. They are designed to not work so that there will be an excuse for even more onerous restrictions in the future. My take is that we need to fight this tooth-and-nail and not get complacent. Write you congressional representatives and senators now.
     
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