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Disassembled Underwood 135gr. 10mm Ammo w/ Pics

Discussion in '10mm Reloading Forum' started by Fragadelic, Feb 24, 2012.


  1. Fragadelic

    Fragadelic
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    After reading preventec47's thread, I began wondering about the powder Kevin was using so I pulled a couple bullets from an order I just received yesterday, which, by the way, I ordered Monday evening so kudos on the crazy fast shipping by Underwood.

    Anywho, here's a couple pics - the grey flakes are just under 2mm in diameter with the brown flakes being about 2/3-3/4 that. I pulled a couple charges and both pushed 11.2 grains on my RCBS 5-0-5.

    I'm guessing 800-X??? I use Blue Dot and AA #9 in 10mm so I will defer judgement to those familiar with the IMR product.

    Also, I probably should stop giving my JRT single malt scotch ;)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

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    #1 Fragadelic, Feb 24, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2012
  2. _The_Shadow

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    Fragadelic, Based on what I know and and you have posted here, I'd say that is IMR 800X seeing that the small (identifier brown dots) are present in the flakes. I am quite supprized that the charge weight is only 11.2 grains!

    Thanks for sharing the info!
     

  3. preventec47

    preventec47
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    Great photos! How did you pull your bullets? I had a heck of
    a time trying to get the bullet out of mine.

    so far Underwoods recipes are:
    9.7gr 800X - 165gr
    11.2gr 800X -135gr 1521 fps w/std 3.8" barrel
     
    #3 preventec47, Feb 24, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2012
  4. Fragadelic

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    Shadow, just as a double check, I pulled a couple more rounds from another box 30 minutes ago and used a digital scale (Frankfort Arsenal) as well as an RCBS 10-10 and got 11.1-11.2 grains. Cartridge overall length was 1.250".

    preventec47, I used a Quinetics bullet puller - 1-2 raps and it was a done deal.

    Now for the fun part - I managed to get out to the range this afternoon and ran through a box of these loads. WOWIE! WOW! WOW! Four hours later and I am still grinning!

    I used a stock Gen3 G29SF with both a stock barrel as well as a KKM barrel. Interestingly, the Glock barrel gave me about 25fps less than the KKM with a higher standard deviation. Here's the results...

    36 degrees F
    650 feet elevation
    25 mph crosswind
    Chrono at ~10 feet from the muzzle

    KKM barrel -- 1548 fps average with a SD of 17.3 -- High was 1575, Low was 1526
    Glock barrel -- 1521 fps average with a SD of 23 -- High was 1560, Low was 1493

    Underwood advertises 1600 fps and I bet with a G20 at the muzzle, it's there.

    About 1/3 of the cases were smiling at me and I actually had more smiles using the KKM barrel. The primers were all pretty flat.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    All in all, I deeply dig this ammo and will be ordering more in various flavors even though I do reload. And, while I will not try to reuse the brass, I have no reservations about putting Kevin's ammo through the stock Glock barrel.

    Oh yeah, the accuracy was superb and grouped damn near as well my own G35 .40 S&W GSSF recipe. (In all my grinning, I almost forgot to mention this).

    The dog is just glad I'm home...

    [​IMG]
     
    #4 Fragadelic, Feb 24, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2012
  5. _The_Shadow

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    Fragadelic, with regards to the smiles on the brass, may I ask what recoil spring system recoil spring weight, are you using? Stock G-29? Factory 17lb or Aftermarket?

    The reason I ask is if you take your barrel out and place one of those casings back inside the chamber, look to see if the "Smile" is holding the casing from going in far enough to be in proper head spacing. The case head needs to be flush with the barrel hood if in proper position, if it shows that the "Smile" is holding the casing from proper head spacing the slide started to move, pulling the casing back, increasing unsupported casing, as unlock occured and before the pressure droped causing the "Smile" situation.

    I hate "Smile"s those brass are ruined!
     
  6. Taterhead

    Taterhead
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    That absolutely looks like 800-X. Thank you for pulling that and sharing.

    The Glock smiles are a mystery to me, but 800-X has sort of been that way for me anyway. I have loaded up to from 10 to 14.5 grains and everything in between with absolutey no issues at all with smiles. The Glock bulges in from my G20 are less than what I consider maximum. Absolutely zero indications of excessive pressures. Yet you are reporting a load with only 11.2 grains with significant Glock frowns. Weird. It could be a gun thing where the 29 is unlocking a bit early.

    When I load 180s, I get smiles like that or worse starting about 1.5 grains below Hornady's max. Yet the 135s are fine. I don't get it. 200s get up to about 1150, but track sort of normally. The inconsistencies are what has me migrating from 800-X.

    Anyway, thanks a lot for the report. Those screaming Noslers are fun to shoot! Can you say, "Snappy?"
     
  7. Fragadelic

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    Shadow, you are spot on - I am running a stock Glock RSA and when I dug a few of the 'smileys' out of the trash, they did, in fact, bind in the chamber and could only be seated fully with a pretty good push of my palm. I'll have to play around with a stronger recoil spring and see if that solves the problem.
     
  8. ModGlock17

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    Shadow,
    What if Magnum Primer are used with 11.2gr of 800x.

    Mike had eluded to that when he was around.
     
  9. _The_Shadow

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    Fragadelic, be sure to line up the smiley up as it sat in the chamber when fired, over the feed ramp area. I suspect that the casing will show that it was backing out as it expanded and then smiled. That will mean that the slide & barrel unlocked too early, the casing was dragged back in the process leaving the case less supported in the process. Hopefully the stronger recoil spring will aid in slide timing and less smiled cases.

    I use the Wolff Gun Springs 21 lb recoil spring set on their two piece non-captive recoil rod in my Glock 29. While I do get some expansion from my Factory Glock barrel, I haven't get any "Smiled" cases to date.

    ModGlock17, Most have said that they the use of the Magnum Primers with the light bullets did cause pressure spikes where the Standard Primers didn't exibit the pressure symthoms with the same loads. However with the heavier bullets most see better performance using the Magnum Primers. With heavy bullets the powder is being compressed, then ignition becomes more important ignigting the most powder before the bullet moves.

    With my latest test using the 200gr XTP's over 9.4 grains of 800X I did use the CCI 350 magnum primers, this yielded 1264 fps for the S&W1006 5" dirty bore and 1284 fps from a clean bore lightly lubed from the Glock 29 Factory 3.78" barrel. Some case expansion but no "Smiles"...

    Taterhead, Just a note, the Glock 20 has more mass in its slide which could take more energy to get it to move.

    Best regards!
     
  10. preventec47

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    Shadow
    Wow with those velocities it is incredibly surprising to me that the much longer SW barrel has slower velocities. Since you specify lubed and dirty bores, have you ever shot a few through the crono and then swabbed the barrel with some lube to see if there is a big velocity jump ?
     
  11. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm
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    Looks like 800X to me. I wonder how Kevin Underwood gets that stuff to meter?? :)

    This thread is fascinating.... I've done quite a bit of work with 800X. Never seen a smile or ANY excess pressure indicators in my testing going from 135-200gr bullets.... but its mostly all been from a fully supported 6" Fusion barrel. But I've honestly not yet heard of many people getting smiles even with stock G20 barrels as long as they are using non-mag primers.

    Shadow - I got 1275 avg using 9.3gr 800X under a 200gr XTP CCI300 (6" bbl) and 1310 avg from the same charge under a 200gr WFNGC bullet. I've gone to 9.5gr with the XTP and to 9.7gr under the WFNGC, as well as 13.0gr 800X under a 135gr Nosler.

    No pressure signs with any of the above loads (but do your OWN workups, people!). Those are all MAX loads... and I mean max.
     
  12. _The_Shadow

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    I would need to do more test to check those results, most of the time I start with clean bores lightly oiled and wiped dry.

    That day the S&W was used for several test...
     
  13. gwsanfor

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    That's definitely not LongShot, Power Pistol, any VihtaVuori propellant I've seen, or a ball powder. Pretty much has to be 800-X. Like the others, I wonder how he meters that stuff so accurately? I've shot every round Kevin makes, and they all have superb standard deviations/precision, like they were hand weighed.
     
  14. Kegs

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    Several guys have set up 800x to meter with fairly tight variance on progressive loaders.

    I have seen several setups posted regarding that - not sure who does it.

    800x is a good powder because it is fairly efficient for the 10mm cartridge.


    You don't need much of this powder to make the bullets go - which is kind of the point.
     
  15. preventec47

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    If there were no pressure signs, then how do you know those were MAX loads ? ?
     
  16. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm
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    Well, they are all well above book loads, for one thing. I'm not sure what you are asking, sir.

    If you're asking whether these are literally the highest, most "max" loads ever made by any handloader in 10mm, I would say no - I'm sure there are people who have gone higher. There are also those that turned their firearms into grenades. If you are asking if they are a maximum load (that I or any other prudent reloader) would consider safe in my gun, I would say yes. The idea is not to simply load up until you see pressure signs. The idea is to stop before you see pressure signs... or at least back down quickly. Once you see pressure signs, you've technically gone too far. ;)
     
  17. CanyonMan

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    One of the best post I have seen in a while. I like all you ole boys and a great number are very good friends in my opinion, hope feelings are mutual.( :embarassed: I do not mean to sound mushy ! ) :tongueout:

    But I must say that this post (by Nick) has the needed wisdom that should be heard ! BTW this powder does look like 800X to me, And I seriously think it is a bad selection for the 40 S&W and the 10mm. I don't care who does what.....

    Even Hodgdon (sp) does not suggest 800X for the 10mm.... I have friends that work there.. As I have said before, I have worked with Hodgdon and the Single format loading manuals concerning 800X in 10mm: see pic below:

    [​IMG]

    This publisher and I have been working close together along with Hodgdon to "correct" all the load data errors in this book.... Still in the process of dealing with errors in the publication... They have been very coopertive and sincere as they do not want to publish data to blow folks up..

    I realize that one or two here or so use 800X, like it is the 'magic powder' for the 10mm... It is NOT ! It is an unstable powder in these calibers, and giving the idea to folks that it can be compressed and compressed and compressed, is just plain stupid. This is a very dangerous practice. Don't do it, those of you who do not already know. Compressing this powder is a dangerous practice i do not care who got away with it or does it.

    This is NOT a scolding or a rant, it is a warning for those who do not know, or need to know the truth.

    again as Nick said, and this goes for any powder/load...


    This is sound wisdom ! We need to heed it !


    Well that is once again off my chest. :jumpingjacks: I feel better now.







    Bless y'all
    Stay safe !











    CM = The amigo against 800X in 10mm. :whistling:
     
  18. Fragadelic

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    Just as a follow-up, I dropped in a Wolff guide rod & spring set (21 pound) and headed to the range yesterday - after running a box of the Underwood 135's through both the KKM and stock barrels, not one smiley was found and there were no malfunctions. Thanks to The Shadow for his insight - problem solved :)
     
  19. preventec47

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    ///////////////////////

    I'm sorry, but you are flat wrong here. I have not shot 800X and frankly I am a little suspicious myself even though I have a bottle but the FACT IS that Hodgdons current load book on their website for 10mm has recommended loads for 155, 180 and 200 gr bullets. Did you mean to say they do not support 800X for 135 ? If so, I can agree with that.

    I dont see a reason against using 800X according to load data
    formulas but I cant see any difference in 800X verses
    all other powders when it comes to exceeding load book
    recipes. When you do that you are always going to be on
    your own when you venture there.
     
    #19 preventec47, Mar 15, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2012
  20. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm
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    Interesting. So, the heavier recoil spring prevented your smilies?