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Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by certifiedfunds, Nov 2, 2012.
We have a huge volunteer house. Some of them practically live there. I doubt they will change that.
I watch youtube videos of you guys out east and you have so many at structure fires that it makes my head hurt.
I roll out by myself and hope for help other than auto aid. I might be on the scene ten minutes before the station one guy arrives Fortunately most one room fires I will have out by then.
I agree. That is ridiculous. You have a job where you have the potential to be exposed to deadly pathogens, you have a contract that states the employer will provide necessary safety equipment, and they do not. Providing potentially inferior equipment is likely not what is in the contract. Even if the other gloves may provide the same protection, I can see where requiring approved/tested equipment is necessary.
While I don't see that as an issue requiring a union (I can see ways to fix the issue without the presence of a union), I can see where they can play a role with stubborn (and unfortunately legally-protected) employer. I could definitely see suing them for breach of contract, liability for exposure to deadly pathogens, etc.
The whole thing sounds penny-wise and pound-foolish (what do they think is going to happen when somebody catches HepB or C or HIV or whatever while wearing non-certified PPE- especially when the wrong PPE was supplied? Smells like liability to me).
Non-union professional leach (CCEMT-P) weighing in here.
And what you are failing to consider is the level of service your department provides and it's impact on your community.
"They did fine as an all volunteer department." Bull****! I've been in this business a while and have seen the differences between a well run paid department and a well run volunteer department and the differences are as obvious as night and day.
Volunteer departments have less training, longer response times and do not perform nearly as well as paid departments. I've seen it, I've lived it and I've seen more than one person DIE because of it and that's not an exaggeration.
When you or your loved ones are laying on the floor dying while waiting on the volunteers to get to the station to get a truck and then have guys show up that aren't as proficient with their skills because they don't use them that often, you can feel proud that you saved some money and got rid of those worthless paid firefighters!
Seven figure liability no doubt.
Willing to take that risk. Served us fine for 50 yrs. Been here for 41. Haven't yet heard of anyone dying because the first responders were incompetent.
What else ya got other than scare tactics?
Btw, we also have private emt/paramedic/ambulance services here.
That's not scare tactics, that's just the reality of the situation. And just because you think it served you fine for 50 years doesn't mean it actually did and again, just because you haven't heard of someone dying due to incompetence doesn't mean it doesn't happen all the time.
Besides that, take off your blinders for a minute and think about it. Who do you want working on you, someone with more training and experience that does the job constantly or someone that goes to an hour long training meeting once a week? And yes, most volunteers don't have the training and experience of guys that work in paid departments. If volunteer departments were "just as good as" every city in America would be using volunteers but they aren't and there is a reason for that.
That's the truth there. I haven't been in this business for long, but as a paramedic for an ambulance service that relies on volunteer and paid firefighters in their own communities, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you think volunteer departments can provide an equal level of service.
Like Gribble, I've also seen people die that could have been saved with the level of training and equipment a paid service can provide. It's not all about fighting fires. In fact, very little of it is.
Don't get me wrong, I thank God we have volunteers in the rural areas. They show up at 3 in the morning when a confused diabetic wants to kick my butt for helping him, or just when it comes to lifting a 400 lb patient even though they already knew what they were in for by the address of said person. It's handy to have someone show up before I can get there and take a set of vitals, give oxygen or get quality CPR started.
That doesn't help much though when they show up on the scene of an emergency that requires immediate advanced life support or the person will literally die. Say you or someone you care about experiences such an emergency. Too bad the ambulance stationed just down the road is already on a call and the next closest one is 20 minutes away. It's easy to say that's an acceptable risk when you don't see the effects because it's never affected you.
Missed this the first time around.
Ok, here's a classic example of what I'm talking about. You, as a layperson (not meaning that disrespectfully) think a private for profit ambulance is the equivalent of a tax payer funded ambulance. That's understandable but highly inaccurate and I'll explain why.
In the state of SC (where I work) the state has a minimum requirement for ambulance staffing. That minimum requirement is one basic EMT and a driver. A basic EMT has the minimum amount of EMS training required by law to actually be an EMT. They can't provide advanced care like cardiac monitoring and treatment, they can't administer life saving medications, start IV's or pleural decompress. They can basically bandage, ventilate, compress (CPR) and transport. Most private ambulance companies staff their ambulances at the minimum level. They do that because for the vast majority of their calls that's all they need because they turn a profit by transporting people to dialysis, hospital discharge patients and transporting pt's to routine Dr. appointments. Their ambulances are typically stocked only to the basic level. If you have a heart attack and a private ambulance shows up you will receive oxygen and a ride. Sometimes the private companies actually do the right thing and actually call 911 so we can try and intercept them to provide a higher level of care.
Now, my tax payer funded municipal service has an ALS license. That means we have to have paramedics and all the required ALS equipment on our rigs. We have training standards we have to meet that BLS private services don't have to adhere to.
Now, at my tax payer funded service if you have a heart attack and I show up you'll get oxygen, bilateral IV's, cardiac 12 lead monitoring and interpretation and the necessary medicines to keep you alive and minimize ischemic damage to your heart. Most importantly, my tax payer funded equipment allows me to send my ECG findings to the hospital so they can have a cath lab team waiting on us when we roll in and you'll go straight to a cath lab, saving time and heart muscle.
One mistake here:
He's NOT interested in the truth. He has AREADY made up his mind that unions are composed of greedy, useless people. He has ALREADY made up his mind that the paid F/R unit is of NO use. You cannot change his mind - there is no point for discussion. He's just running his mouth to gather some moral justification. Three sides to every story - His side, the union's side and then the truth. He is WAY too emotionally involved to have any kind of credible objective viewpoint here.
I would say that he is probably more then a little red-assed that he can't play Fire Fighter anymore.
I have personally brought, and searched, 78 people in an 8 hour shift. I've seen over 100 brought in. You, being the know everything type you try to portray, so understand that its imperative to search every incoming prisoner, right?
Oh, and I work at a jail, not a prison. Big difference - trouble yourself to learn what and why.
Then, there's the shakedowns which require around 30 people to be searched, plus their personal items, including beds, clothes, and shoes. We also have medical emergencies that occur regularly, some of which involve blood. Let's not forget about fights. We had three officers sent to the ER just this week on my shift, in two seperate incidents. The first one required a court ordered blood draw from the inmate to ensure he didn't have HIV or hep, since he bled on the officers.
As was mentioned above, you have already made up your mind about unions and nothing anyone says will change it. Like I said, you're the perfect example of class warfare for the liberals (of which I am not). The pompous, greedy, and arrogant wealthy man who only works to get more money. You made a pile, and retired once. You're only doing again for more....nothing wrong with that at all. Your attitude toward other people with less money is the issue. You despise them, and that hate exudes from every post.
It must suck to be you sometimes.
^^^^Very true. Especially the last sentence.
I notice none of you will touch on exactly what makes you "conservatives" different from DU liberals. Once again the only difference I see is what cows are sacred. You seem to have just as many, just different, sacred cows.
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Yeeeup! Absolultley. Spot on analysis.
Any council that runs up staff based on a one time gov't grant payout either had a little empire building in mind ( a FT fire department plus increased taxes) or were complete idiots.
I'm betting game plan.
Obamacare was based on this exact same premise. Early "giveme's" such as dependent coverage and no pre-existing conditions. Increased taxes after the re-election. Democrats are betting nobody will want to give up the initial promo.
A fish will tell you that the hook, once bit, is very hard to get out the of the mouth.
What really saddens me is so many people don't get it. The us is spending at an unstainable rate. We are nearly on par with Greece on a GDP to debt ratio. We are second worst of 1st world countries.
I realize fire/Leo/military/social security/medicare/Medicaid/welfare/infrastructure/pork are all sacred cows. But how so you decided what to do with all these cows when there is not enough feed/grain/grass so that they can all eat like they want to. Do you reduce the diet of all of them? Shoot some? Let them slowly starve.
You guy don't seem to understand the govt spending to GDP problem.
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This post confuses income with taxation.
Truth is, half of this country effectively pays no Federal income tax. That half likes it that way. Doesn't want to change it. One of our two major political parties even exploits it (guess which one) because they want more tax revenue but don't want to upset the base that effectively doesn't pay. So they demand that the "rich" pay more. More Federal. More State. More Medicare. More property taxes.
Why not make it an "equal" basis? Everybody "pulling together". Flat tax across the board for all incomes above poverty level. Everybody pays an equal percentage. Every voter has "skin" in the game. If they demand more social services, they pay more taxes. That sounds like a fair, "American" concept, doesn't it?
Answer is you cull the herd.
As you noted, the country cannot sustain it's current level of spending. This is true on a Federal, State and Local level.
We are overspending into financial oblivion.
We must also recognize that Public Service employment is not a "jobs" program. It does not exist to keep people employed. Governments must respond to the ups and downs of economics just like private enterprise does. Government fails to do that and employees tend to try to keep their empires until things get better. That's how governments go bankrupt.
Alabama has municipalities in (or approaching) bankruptcy.
These are just the first stones of the coming landslide.
We must live within our means.
I think 50 years is a fair enough window of time to make a judgement call.
Who do I want working for me? I want the guy with passion for what he does. I'll take that over all the training you can throw at a union clock puncher. I'll take it over talent too.
I want the guy who enjoys the crap so much he wants to give up his time off to do it. I don't want the guy who needs a union to cover for him.
If paid departments were "better than", every city in America would be using them.
See how that works?
I think some of you are confusing some of the issues here. I'm not in favor of supporting a union, IAFF or UAW doesn't matter, they've all out grown their purpose and have morphed into something they were never intended to be.
I also support necessary cuts, just not when it comes to public safety. Parks and rec programs are a huge drain on government resources, most government agencies are way to top heavy, they need to be trimmed. I've personally attended conferences that were taxpayer funded and were basically nothing more than party trips, they need to stop. I've seen councilmen and administrators attend training conferences in Hawaii, huge waste. By all means, cut the waste.
What I'm not in favor of is cutting public safety at the responder level. I average eight to ten calls per shift in a remote, rural county. That's eight to ten people that called 911 for some kind of emergency, sometimes they weren't true emergencies and they didn't need me but sometimes they were. When your house is on fire or you're loved one is sick and dying you want the best showing up to deal with your crisis. Cut that and you're going to see property lost and people dying, it's just a simple fact. Same thing for cops. They spend a great deal of there time answering bogus calls but when the SHTF you want the best showing up, not the lowest bidder.
If public safety in your area isn't getting it done then by all means, please demand change. Demand better people and more accountability but don't demand cuts. For every budget cut to save money on equipment, training and front line personnel is going to only do one thing, make you and other innocent people suffer and/or die needlessly.
None of these folks care about that. They want more for nothing.
" I was wondering what would break first; your spirit or your body."