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copper bullets hunting.

Discussion in '10mm Reloading Forum' started by ctious, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. ctious

    ctious

    554
    1
    Dec 12, 2011
    Anyone test copper bullets on deer, hog? I was wondering about them. Maybe even for bear hunting.

    Seem like they would cut a nice hole.
     
  2. _The_Shadow

    _The_Shadow Ret. Fireman

    4,519
    21
    Jul 23, 2007
    Southeast, LoUiSiAna
    They do expand as advertised, they expand fairly quickly. However they are long for their weights thus occupy plenty powder space in the case which limits velocity somewhat. I tested the Barnes 140 TAC XP with the same powder loads as I used for the 200XTP's and velocities were near the same.
     


  3. ctious

    ctious

    554
    1
    Dec 12, 2011
    I heard guys getting them going around 1500. Seem like they would work.well. I have used copper solids in. The shotgun for deer and work well.

    Do they break apart when hitting solid stuff?
     
  4. _The_Shadow

    _The_Shadow Ret. Fireman

    4,519
    21
    Jul 23, 2007
    Southeast, LoUiSiAna
  5. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

    5,707
    11
    Jul 26, 2002


    Ctious,

    Hey amigo ...

    Killin a deer ain't hard at all, so about anything works there. (within reason). If your talking about your 10mm pard, I'd strongly suggest a heavy hardcast bullet on the small hogs, and forget the all copper version. I even 'more strongly' suggest the bear load jump up to a 44mag minimum. If you just "must" use a 10mm on a black bear, then again, use at least a 200gr hard cast, 'NOT' a JHP... These aren't guesses their from experience. ;)

    I think you and I have talked about this before... I may be mistaken, but none the less, the all copper barnes aren't to bad on thin skinned game like deer/antelope, from your 10mm.

    With elk and larger game like this, Barnes all copper are ok if proper bullet weight and caliber of "rifle" not 10mm, are selected.

    Don't be fooled by the gello test with the barnes copper looking like a Ford truck fan blade, it ain't much so in the real world, and penetration is lost, especially if it hits hard bone... And for heavens sake don't use a JHP on a bear from that 10mm. I've seen a good many animals in 50 years taken down all over this country, and 25 years of that as a guide, and a man needs to suit the weapon to the task at hand.... ;)

    If ya want to use a Barnes in your 10mm on deer, fine. Put a good shot on him. But jump up on a 'solid' for the hogs and larger. At least a 200gr XTP for small pigs. HC for sure for bear, which I truly do not reccomend from the 10mm.


    Good hunting.
    Stay safe










    CanyonMan
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  6. oldman11

    oldman11

    4,994
    1,891
    Mar 1, 2012
    Texas
    If I do shoot HC from a G20 would I need to change barrels?
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  7. ctious

    ctious

    554
    1
    Dec 12, 2011
    I am planning on using a 200 gr xtp on my black bear. I wanted to use hard cast but the mold will not be ready in time. I have done some testing with my loads with the xtp and I think.it will do what I need it to. Sitting on a stand and shooting about 15 yards it should work.
     
  8. ctious

    ctious

    554
    1
    Dec 12, 2011
    On a side note. Anyone ever try putting a tin tip on a xtp? Fill the Hp. Wondering if it would slow expansion some. Making it deeper penetrating. Just an idea. Kind of like a soft point.
     
  9. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

    5,707
    11
    Jul 26, 2002
    Pard, I have for a decade and a half shot tons of HC through the OEM barrel. As I said in the post above, it is very reliable and extremley accurate. Now the bhn of the lead I use is 18/20/21 with 3% antimony content. I just do not get leading and everything works fine. I do not use HC with antimony over 6%, and really prefer 3-4 percent so the bullet is not brittle. Also i use only 200gr from BT, and the 180gr from HS. Both pack a nasty punch with the load data I'll give ya.

    Beartooth and Hunter Supply offer great HC bullets.

    Both are friends of mine, and JR at HS is a long time shooting pard of mine. He test his cast bullets in stock Glock barrels along with other model guns as well of course, just to further encourage you. I do testing for him as well, and it is all from an OEM barrel. Yes I have two AM barrels, but see NO difference in accuracy at all.

    Now, if your sitting over bait, and the bear is 250#'s or so, I hesitate here amigo, but Yes, if ya go with the 180gr XTP at say 10.7grs Blue Dot. "Hornady vol 6 max for this bullet." Standard CCI 300 primer @ 1.260 COAL, or 10.5grs BD under a 200gr XTP... ***A tad over book max, but has served me very well in OEM barrel*** and shooting straight down from your stand, place your shots well. It is a different story from using it to "save your Butt" from an attack. You WILL be fine.

    Again, you will be ok with these loadings, and from a stand at close range with a well placed shot. ;)

    I know your a hand loader, as am I, BUT, if until you can get your cast bullets, you may consider the Buffalo Bore for "this hunt," and work it all out later..

    http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=113

    I say this amigo, cause I want you to be confident about what ya got in that chamber when ya pull the trigger, meaning, that if your 'antsy' about cast in the OEM, then for NOW, use the XTP's as I have laid out for you above, 'until' you can play with the HC in the OEM enough to be confident with it.. Make sense ?

    It 'may' help to have a bit heavier spring with the BB. I must admit here, I do NOT have any experience with a gen 4, and the duel rod/spring set up, but I run 21/22 # springs in my G20nuclear down to poofy loads, and no problems. You would just have too try some with your stock spring. The stock spring MAY cause you some issues according to BB site (read their suggestions). Again, I am not familiar with the gen 4 set up.

    Excuse me if that is NOT what you have, I am thinking you do for some reason. :dunno:

    Bottom line here amigo, from that tree stand, if your dead set on the 10mm for the blackie, then again, the 180/200gr XTP's with the above loading/s, would be my 'minimum choices'. I just want to see ya have a fun time and a great hunt. I am hesitant, as I just flat do not advocate JHP's or 10mm for bear.... But in the way your hunting, and with the loads I gave you, I would personally feel confident.

    Then next time, if ya "must.' Use a 200gr HC ! ;) Better yet get a 44mag. :supergrin:


    I would not tell ya this, if I were guessing or thought I was wrong, so there ya go amigo. If ya can get a 200gr HC though please do try....



    PM me if this don't make sense, or I can help you in any way. There are plenty other old boys on here that know their stuff as well, so I am NOT trying to raise a standard above any one, just sharing what I know with ya !


    Good hunting !









    CanyonMan
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  10. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    428
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    Sep 7, 2010
    PRK (Kalifornia)
    First of all, I do not like the performance options available with all-copper or non-lead bullets. I only use them as a necessity in CA areas that require it. I have Barnes loaded for all my handguns, except the small/weak, non-hunting calibers (.380, .38, .40, etc.), as it's only lawful to shoot wild animals with non-lead. Still legal to shoot 2-legged critters with lead. So.....

    If you have to use them, they can be made to work well.
    I load the 155's at over 1500 FPS through the 5.2" LWD barrel, and a bit under 1500 FPS with the stock 4.6" (about 40-50 FPS difference). A 6" barrel would likely be more, impressively (very impressive in my 6.5" revolver). Very stout round, but not excessive. The Tac-XP is a better hunting bullet than their hunting bullet (XPB), at high velocities, in my experience. True that, a hit on solid, such as glass, steel or hard wood, and neither expand (I don't hunt game driving cars or hiding in the privy), but wouldn't be any worse than a similar weight hard cast. At very high velocities (carbine), they expand, massively, regardless of the barrier. Heavy hides, no problem. Hogs and deer, no problem. I haven't had a shot on black bear, but wouldn't hesitate if needed. I wouldn't consider 10mm primary for black bear hunting, but do carry it. As CM said, bigger is better, in this case.

    I've loaded these in .40's too, and they feed well in the tightest chambers when seated at max+ (such as a finicky Ruger). 1.265" is the limit in my G20, due to mag interference. I could go to 1.275" in the chamber (which would be nice), but they jam in the mag at about 1.270". They are .400", so don't have the issues as with the .401/2" HC's in regards to throat engagement.

    For 12 Ga, none better than Winchester SXP123 (SXP12 is the 2-3/4", but why bother...). 300 gr. sabot/.45, copper w/ tin core, polymer tipped. It moves out, too. Very accurate well past 100 yds. 2230 FPS through my 24" rifled slugger (Mossy 5500). About the same performance as my son's .50 BP with Barnes 300 gr. TMZ (magnum load). I would probably be using this round, even if non-lead weren't required.
     
  11. ctious

    ctious

    554
    1
    Dec 12, 2011
    Oh I am set up for max loads. 6in lw barrel long slide with a 200 xtp doing 1300. 9.2 longshot.
    I would prefer a 200 cast. But like I said. The mold won't be ready in time. But I think the 200 xtp at that speed should do well.
     
  12. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

    5,707
    11
    Jul 26, 2002

    Well, I did not know all this.... ha !

    If you can 'safely' get 1300fps with a 200gr XTP@1300fps with LS, then as i said, 'over the stand' go for it.


    Well, good luck.













    CM
     
  13. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    428
    0
    Sep 7, 2010
    PRK (Kalifornia)
    If you aren't "tied" to non-lead, do yourself a favor and don't go there with handgun rounds. As good as you can make them, they don't stack up to good ol' lead. Some of the rifle bullets offer some appealing performance, but handgun cartridge cases are handicapped with case capacity before you ever start.
     
  14. ctious

    ctious

    554
    1
    Dec 12, 2011
     
  15. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    428
    0
    Sep 7, 2010
    PRK (Kalifornia)
    Well..... I've done this with a .41 Mag, flat footed, eye to eye, at about 20 yds (slung rifle, 400# furball). The .41 was flat out definitive. 45° through the shoulder with a 220 gr. JFP, and he was a wet rag. It was an ideal shot, but they're all ideal, aren't they? (the ones that aren't, you don't brag about). The 10mm with a 200 gr. XTP isn't too far behind. I'd do it. 16 times if necessary.
     
  16. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

    5,707
    11
    Jul 26, 2002


    Hey old buddy. How are ya man ?

    Well I must admit that I have never used the "Tac-XP," but sounds like you have had good luck with it. Man I have been so HC oriented all my life I have just not, (except for rifles) or the Barnes loads in a 'clients rifle' I was guiding, used them to much, and experiences were not that good for me in 'hand guns' with the ones I did use... Perhaps I did not give them a chance. Just never warmed up to them.

    I appreciate your post amigo, and the information you shared. I may try some out and see how they do. Dang i tell ya, HC and hard head, haha, that is me. Dern, I got to get out more ! haha.

    Well, again my friend, thanks for the post. I enjoyed what you had to say. I will look into it. It has been sooooo very long since i've used copper in a HG. Your results, if i am reading you correctly, are interesting.


    About to fall asleep on the key board. "Batching" this weekend, as the wife went a cajillion miles away just to baby sit our daughter's dog for a couple days... No groceries man !

    I think my grease burger is knocking me out, so i'll catch you later pard.

    BTW.. We are in fire danger again, and in BAD need of rain. Still have not got one drop ! The other day someone showed me a picture of a bottle cap turned upside down and nailed to a board and said, "This is a west Texas rain guage" !

    It was funny, but then again not if ya know what i mean..

    Rambling. Times up ! :yawn:



    Stay safe out there please !








    CanyonMan
     
  17. ctious

    ctious

    554
    1
    Dec 12, 2011
    I wish I could find a jfp for the 10 mm. I looked some with nothing found. Anyone else know of any? That is why I was thinking about filling the hp of the xtp with soft solder. Thought it might act more like a jfp.
     
  18. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    428
    0
    Sep 7, 2010
    PRK (Kalifornia)
    The 10mm (.40 big) is just not seriously considered a hunting round. The .41 bullets I have are old, and not made any more (they are actually Speer JSP "semi-jackets" with soft/pure lead), and I'm about out of them. I bought a bunch of them about 30 years ago. I have some more "modern" JSP's, but they aren't the same, rounded ogive with narrow meplat. I've resized some .41 210 gr. FP-TMJ's to .401, and they work with 10mm (like a WFN with a .290 meplat), but not the same. I use them for 38-40, but they are long for 10mm to get some real energy out of them. Neat and fun, but not practical. If you have the option, XTP or HC's are the way to go. I'm strapped to non-lead hunting local, so that's what I have to work with.

    Filling the "hollow point" with lead may be an option. The point is too pointy, I think. It would prevent expansion, to some point, but I think you'd end up with a hole-puncher, and a far cry from a true FP or WFN. I tried this, in a sense, when lead was banned. I started with some .45 caliber (sabot, ballistic tip) rounds for my son's .50 BP. I melted the lead from the jackets and filled with tin. The bullets flat out fly (25% velocity increase), hit HARD, and were accurate to 200 yds and more, but they just punched holes. Minnie balls did better. Anyway, the key with a non-expanding bullet is the meplat diameter. Bigger is better. About 70% bore diameter is ideal.
     
  19. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    428
    0
    Sep 7, 2010
    PRK (Kalifornia)
    Good, thanks. You?

    That was in NO WAY a recommendation to try this stuff. I do because I have to. Can't hunt my own mountain with lead. A really good non-lead bullet is no match for a mediocre real bullet, in a handgun. I use some Hornady Mono-Flex 30-30 rounds that'll put the hurt on ya, but that's different. Those 140's at 2590 FPS, and accurate, really do well. Probably better than the lead, and shoot a lot flatter. But, that's the only non-lead round (that and the 12 ga. and .50) I'll warm up to, so far. Either one will cut a coyote in half at 150 yds.

    The Tac-Xp's are probably really good against 2-legged critters, but still fall short, even in 10mm, against more than that. I push them to extremes, but have to. They're safe, in my guns. I only share the recipe by request, and offline. It's process to get them up to that velocity, and not for the faint of heart. Nukes. Fired in the Glock barrel, the brass is not reusable, but OK in the LWD or revolver. Not across the line, but up to and touching. If I couldn't do that, I wouldn't bother carrying it on the trail. I have others (.41, .44, etc.), but I like the 10, and my son REALLY likes my .41. .44 is too long/heavy (8-3/8") for backup. The .45LC is good, but doesn't like the unleaded bullets.

    As I said, the unleaded rounds can be made to acceptable, but no more than that. At 1500 FPS, the 155 gr. is only 775 FPE, and as far as she'll go before it gets out of the practical (safe) range.

    Take care, friend.
     
  20. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

    5,707
    11
    Jul 26, 2002

    Yeh, honestly dm, this is what I really hinted at, and was trying to get out on my post to our amigo 'ctious.' Which i think is a pretty good old boy... As I kept saying, "I hesitate to tell ya,' I really to not recommend the 10mm for bear.." etc etc.

    BUT, from my experience, I know with a 180/200gr XTP at the vels he is running them, "from a stand" (not for SD), he will be ok on light weight blackies up to about 400#'s, I'd rather it weigh 'less,' but in this particular circumstance the way he is hunting, if he places that first shot really well with a good hit, and will more than likely need another or two as well perhaps, he really should be fine..

    Less than Ideal as I said, 'next time take a 44mag at least."
    I never advocate anything larger than deer/antelope/small pigs with the 10mm, I just can't place my stamp on it. It is good for these, and human SD, but that is where it should end. I can take elk with a 357mag and hard cast bullets, but it is not the best choice... etc.

    I shoot (as ya know) 99% HC bullets and have for 50 years. I have taken a great deal of game, and guided those who have as well. There is just nothing in a hand gun, like a wide meplat HC bullet, nothing. (imo).

    But I wish our friend here well, and in "his case," I really do believe he wil be ok in the way he is doing this hunt, or I would have just said, "forget it," as I usually do around here. Never to sound smart or argue, but if ya say what ya know, hey, what's wrong with that ? haha. It's better to hear the stove is hot don't touch it, than to find out by sittin on it ! ;)


    Take care amigo !






    CM