CCW: One in the chamber or not?

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by ArlenGunClub, Jan 24, 2013.


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  1. I wouldn't bother carrying a gun if your scared to carry one in the chamber.

    If attacked you'll be lucky to have time to unholster a weapon, let alone charge it at well.
     

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    #81 AR15 guy, Jan 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  2. I recommend keeping one the chamber and the rest in your magazine or at the very least all in the magazine. It you keep them all on a clip, you have to remove the rounds from the clip, load them in your mag, insert the mag in a firearm, and then rack to slide to be ready. When seconds count, you are only a minute from getting your pistol operational by keeping your rounds on a clip
     

  3. zbomb

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    Snap Cap in the chamber....
     
  4. locked and loaded
     
  5. tnedator

    Lifetime Member

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    As far as well reasoned, reasons, I think it boils down to this (to summarize some of my long winded posts.

    1. Time can be a factor, and even the fraction of a second (under ideal conditions) it can take to chamber a round, might be the difference between successfully defending yourself and those under your care and being killed or grievously wounded.

    2. Racking the slide is something that can go wrong (as someone pointed out this morning in this thread). While any gun could have a failure to pickup the round and go into battery when trying to speed-rack the slide, certain guns like Kahr's have a great likelihood of failing in this regard (where a Glock is typically pretty forgiving).

    3. The number one flaw in the logic that "it only takes me .2 seconds to rack my slide while bringing the gun on to target" is that it assumes you will have both hands available to perform said function. In training or in front of the mirror, of course you will have both hands. In real world self defense situations, you are VERY likely to be using your off hand (left hand if you are right handed) to hold off an attacker/maintain separation, while you draw and point fire from the hip/side of stomach/chest location.

    This is the reason that it is common, if not almost always done, in self defense training courses to practice drawing and firing at close range, with your off hand held out, palm forward simulating what you will be doing when a guy 3' feet from you about to pass you, pulls a knife or in some other way launches an attack.

    This last point, point three, is where all of the "it only takes a fraction of a second to rack my slide" logic completely falls apart. The ONLY way this logic holds up is to assume that the odds are you will never have to pull a gun in self defense, and therefore, having the gun useless in x (40, 50, 70) percent of the situations where I would need to use a gun in self defense is ok, because the odds are I will never have to use my gun to defend myself.

    As has been discussed in this thread, and as I have said, everyone has their comfort level, and that is a VERY important consideration. If a person feels unsafe with a chamber in the round, they shouldn't carry one, because that nervousness will likely make them more likely to have an accident. That said, nobody that carries with the chamber empty should be under the incorrect belief that it doesn't greatly impact their ability to defend themselves or those under their care, because the simple, and indisputable fact is that it does greatly reduce your ability to defend yourself. Not an opinion, that's a fact.
     
  6. tnedator

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    If you have practiced PROPERLY drawing your weapon, with your trigger finger in the proper place until the gun is coming on target and ONLY then putting your finger inside the trigger guard/reaching for the trigger, and then going back to the proper place when the gun is leaving the target, it isn't a "fine motor skill" issue.

    If you ever have to draw your weapon in self defense, the odds of you severing your femoral artery vs. the odds that you will need to use your off hand to fend off an attack are not even in the same realm of possibility. One, the latter, is a routine factor when drawing a weapon in self defense, and the other is a contrived rationale for not carrying one in the chamber.

    Your artery scenario would only be a realistic scenario for someone who is improperly (or not at all) trained (self or instructor or both) and is in the habit of putting his finger inside the trigger guard as the gun clears leather. If a person is doing that, and their training level is that poor, then I agree with you of the dangers. Short of that lack of training, your scenario is simply a far fetched reach/justification and you are probably as likely to have your skull bashed in from blue ice falling off an airplane.
     
    #86 tnedator, Jan 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  7. On a more serious note, if you are not yet comfortable carrying a round in the chamber, it's okay. This usually means you are not yet confident in either the pistol not firing by itself or in your own firearm handling. This is what I tell people to do to overcome this. It's always worked. Get a quality holster that protects the trigger and completely covers the trigger guard. I can not express enough how important a quality holster is to carrying chambered with guns without manual safeties. With your pistol unloaded, cocked the gun, and then insert your mag. Carry like this, unchambered, for a month or two(or ever long it takes to get comfortable.) Every day at the end of the day inspect you pistol to make sure the trigger isn't depressed. It won't be. Glocks don't go off by themselves if you don't monkey with the internals too much. If it ever is. You did something wrong and need to re-evaluate your firearm handling skills as you are not ready to carry a firearm. The idea is, day after day, month after month if need be, you will notice the trigger doesn't and won't just depress by itself. Once you see this and are comfortable, start carrying one in the pipe. I actually did this to myself when I first started carrying a Glock. I grew up and was trained on firearms with manual safeties and uber safe gun handling and rules. I wasn't sure of a platform without manual safeties. This is how I initially over came that. Now I prefer no manual safeties.I think a lot of people use them almost as a crutch for poor firearms handling and using piss poor holsters. Eventually you need to carry chambered or you are crippling yourself. I hope this helps you out.
     
    #87 D4RWlN, Jan 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  8. vandros

    vandros 10mm fan

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    I agree with your point that one-handed shooting is a very likely scenario. It is a VERY good point, based on substantial amount of statistical data.

    I disagree with you, and others, on one issue though: You talk about being "comfortable" vs. "uncomfortable" having a round in the chamber. And some talk about learning to be comfortable by carrying weapon with a round in the chamber when they are in their home. I agree with you that you want to reduce your nervousness when it comes to handling your weapon. What I disagree with is the sentiment that your being "comfortable" carrying a chambered round is something like being comfortable hitting on women in a bar, or being comfortable asking raise from your boss. The prescription for CCing you seem to be making is: Practice, and with time you'll get comfortable with the idea of carrying a round in the chamber. The important issue here (which nobody has addressed so far) is the adrenaline dump effects: blood pressure shoots up, hands shaking uncontrollably, heart rate shoots up, breathing rate increases, fine motor reflexes are gone - all of which increases the chances of handling your weapon in less than ideal fashion - no matter how much you train. There is no disputing the fact that the more you train, the less likelihood of negligently discharging the weapon. But, there is also no disputing the fact that adrenaline dump makes you less proficient in handling your weapon safely (in which case adding a 2nd hole to one's butt or shooting one's hip becomes quite possible, if not likely). Just my 0.02.
     
    #88 vandros, Jan 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  9. SGT278ACR

    SGT278ACR Retired Veteran

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    This was discussed several years ago when I went through the police academy. It really makes no sense to not have one chambered when you're carrying for personal protection. As quick as a dangerous threat can come at you... a lot can happen in the time it takes to draw... charge the weapon... then get a shot off. But, to each his own... it's your gun & your choice to carry however you want to. For those of you who do not carry chambered... good luck with that if you are ever instantly and unexpectedly assaulted. :dunno:
     
  10. tnedator

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    First, I never made the type of "comfortable" comparisons that you did, and I would fully agree that being comfortable hitting on a woman is not like being comfortable carrying a weapon properly and safely. If you want to make "comfort" scenarios, it would be other dangerous endeavors where the only near 100% guarantee of safety is proficiency.

    So, some realistic "comfortable" comparisons might be flying a plane, where a person that is proficient in all areas, including emergency landings with no power or short IFR stint if caught above a cloud layer, would be the difference between being "comfortable" flying a single engine plane vs. being nervous, or only wanting to go up with an instructor or another more experience pilot.

    Maybe jumping out of an airplane, where the proficiency in packing your shoot, making sure all of your equipment is both in working order and properly setup, and the proficiency in using the equipment.

    Maybe climbing the sheer face of a rock wall hundreds or thousands of feet above a canyon floor, where the difference between being proficient and not could be the difference between life and death.

    We don't have a lot of data on defensive gun uses, but what data and reporting we do have, simply don't support your adrenaline dump induced femoral artery severing/hole in butt theory.

    Again, IF a person is improperly trained (both in terms of formal training and practice) and is used to drawing his firearm, and putting his finger on the trigger (or in the trigger guard area) as soon as it clears leather, then, yes, your adrenaline dump scenario would be accurate.

    However, if a person has practiced thousands of times "properly" drawing/presenting his weapon, then that won't be an issue, because he won't be requiring fine motor skills to keep his finger hovering over, but not pulling, the trigger.
     
  11. happyguy

    happyguy Man, I'm Pretty

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    Poor simile and I disagree with the point you made with it.

    Regards,
    Comrade Happyguy :)
     
    #91 happyguy, Jan 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  12. happyguy

    happyguy Man, I'm Pretty

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    Feeling a little touchy today?:panties: :rofl:

    Regards,
    Comrade Happyguy :)
     
    #92 happyguy, Jan 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  13. Drain You

    Drain You NRA member

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    I'm so serious about self defense, I carry two in the chamber.
     
  14. IndyGunFreak

    IndyGunFreak KO Windows

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    Why aren't these threads locked immediately? You can find a bazillion opinions on this by using Google for about 4sec.

    IGF
     
  15. vandros

    vandros 10mm fan

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    I see your point. But, I guess what I was trying to say is that even extensive and "perfect" practice should not give one full "comfort" when it comes to flight/fight situation. This comfort is a dangerous illusion, is what I'm trying to say. If you REGULARLY practice holstering/unholstering, drawing, aiming, shooting while injected with adrenaline, AND when your hands are shaking vigorously, AND when you heart rate and breathing rate are jacked up, AND when a genuine fear for your life is somehow induced - then I concede and you win this argument. But, unless you are special forces operator (which I believe 99.99% of folks here aren't), you aren't doing this sort of training regularly.

    I don't understand what you mean by "We don't have a lot of data on defensive gun uses, but what data and reporting we do have, simply don't support your adrenaline dump induced femoral artery severing/hole in butt theory." To clear any misunderstanding, I'm not saying you are 100% sure to shoot yourself in the butt or sever your leg artery. What I'm saying, and what is EXTENSIVELY documented, is that adrenaline dump creates many very specific and very powerful physiological and psychological changes in one's body and mind, which reduce your ability to safely handle your weapon.

    I think I will stop here, as we appear to start going in circles. I'll keep an eye on this thread for good arguments on this issue, though. In all honesty, I'm only about 90% committed to my position on this issue (because the issue is complex), and I appreciate your guys well thought-out arguments. I think we all benefit greatly from rationally and thoughtfully debating on this important topic. Cheers!
     
    #95 vandros, Jan 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013

  16. Instead of vandros focusing on "fine motorskill", I would suggest that he practice more so that drawing a handgun in a safe manner, such as you suggested, i.e.; “PROPERLY drawing your weapon, with your trigger finger in the proper place until the gun is coming on target and ONLY then putting your finger inside the trigger guard/reaching for the trigger, and then going back to the proper place when the gun is leaving the target” becomes a matter of “muscle memory”.

    That type of muscle memory is so engrained in me, that I do not even think about it. It seems to me that vandros has been practicing the wrong thing.

    I do find it useless to waste the time try to change someone like vandros’ opinion or way of thinking on this matter. It reminds me of a gun-grabber and how intransigent they are about how dangerous they perceive firearms to be.

    RJ
     
  17. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

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    I know the difference and I use the correct terminology most of the time, but what difference does it make, really?

    Uncle Sam taught me to use 'clips' when I carried his M-1 years ago. I'm not sure which term he used for the 1911s we trained with.

    I just wonder why people get all twisted up when 'clip' slips out instead of 'mag'. Seems like a pretty small mistake to me.
     
  18. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

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    RJ- They are dangerous, my friend. If they weren't, we wouldn't bother to carry one.
     
    #98 PhotoFeller, Jan 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  19. tnedator

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    It's a little crazy sometimes. While I say magazine 95% of the time, I sometimes say clip. I have no idea, probably from decades of TV and movies using the term.

    I don't know if this is 100% accurate, but the way I differentiate is that a magazine holds the rounds on the inside (basically all of your AR, pistol, etc. type feeding devices are magazines, including the 1911).

    Clips would be something that holds the rounds at the base. So, the M1 Garand has a clip, holding the rounds at their base. You can get 5.56 rounds on stripper 'clips' which hold ten rounds with a clip around their bases, allowing you to quickly reload a magazine.

    So, in my simplified way of thinking, rounds being internal and it's a magazine, rounds being exposed and held together by a device at the base of the cartridge = a clip.

    As to the over-reaction to people about the wrong use of the term, I think it's just a reaction to so many in the media and anti-gun crowd that spout anti-gun rhetoric, but have no clue about guns -- such as Feinstein outlawing semi-automatic rifles with rocket launchers attached to them.
     
  20. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

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    Indy - This thread will rack up hundreds, maybe a thousand posts because the topic is important and people learn more and have more fun participating in a live thread. If it isn't costing you anything, why don't you just pretend it doesn't exist?
     
    #100 PhotoFeller, Jan 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013

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