CCW: One in the chamber or not?

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by ArlenGunClub, Jan 24, 2013.


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  1. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

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    I don't carry most of the time.

    My interest in discussing this topic is to provide a little ballast to offset the wholesale advice given here that EVERYONE should carry C1 or they're dumb, unmanly, living in a dream world, carrying a brick or getting in the way of real men when trouble arises.

    I believe people new to CC and unfamiliar with handguns should get some training and experience, think about the level of risk associated with their personal circumstances, and make a thoughtful decision about carry mode. I think this process is doubly important with respect to carrying Glock pistols.

    I believe people who endorse C1 with Glocks without caveats about training, safety and risk assessment are doing a disservice to anyone who reads their words and the gun community as a whole. NDs do happen...often in the presence of people we care most about.

    I also strongly believe being smart is more important than being armed with a Glock in C1. Most deadly attacks, in my opinion, could be avoided by moving out of dangerous neighborhoods and staying clear of likely ambush territory. Situational awareness is by far the most effective SD tactic we can adopt.

    That's my story. If you had read my prior posts you would have known why I stand where I do.
     

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    #841 PhotoFeller, Mar 20, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  2. I have kept up on the thread, and I do not fault why someone feels that way and follows what they feel they believe.

    I think part of the problem is that your banging your head against folks that have been involved in situations that pushes them to say how they feel, because they too care about the ones close to them.

    Your position is squarely on trying to convince everyone that C1 is bad. Yet , you rarley carry, you have little or no real experience. You claim to maybe had some training and the only facts you dig up is the stuff you find on the internet.

    Which pretty strange, since we are on the internet and discussing whether it is true or not on the internet.....paradox.

    I too, am a French model.
     

  3. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

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    :supergrin:
    Thanks. You're probably right that I've tried too hard to get folks to talk about actual attacks. I feel the arguments for C1 are purely theoretical without experiences to demonstrate the need or the tactical value. We are talking about a tactical decision to carry a Glock pistol chambered without any safety mechanism except the human brain and muscle memory; much has been written about how problematic it can be to rely on human perfection.

    I'm not trying to convince everyone that C1 is bad. I'm trying to show that C1 isn't the only way, and it probably is wrong for some people.

    You say I don't have any experience, yet I've lived a very full and reasonably successful life, including travel throughout the US. I've been in most major US cities including Washington, DC, where I spent lots of time in government facilities in very bad locations. My experience covers 72 years of active, assault-free living.

    With respect to 'facts' I've posted regarding crime statistics, NYPD negligent discharges, criminal activity in my area, etc., I've always used official sources of public information. Feel free to disbelieve anything I've cited if you think its contrived in some way.

    My experience here at GT is that the C1 vs. C3 debate is heavily one sided, but most C1 proponents can't explain why it should be the only way. That's because it isn't the only way.

    You are a French model (which explains the beret) and I'm a hard-nosed old peckerwood who believes strongly held views should be backed by well supported arguments based on real-life experience...somebody's!.:supergrin:
     
    #843 PhotoFeller, Mar 20, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  4. Photo, I am not here to banter with you, debat sure, but other than that it just boils down to just poking at each other.

    Nor will I say that you are wrong in your views, that is your views, and you are entitled to have them.

    Also the level experience has nothing to do really with age, feeling old is not and age bracket entitlement.

    Someone that as lived 72 years may not have even half the experience some who lived in 46.

    You say you do not want folks to read what C1 guys saying, that there is no other way, well C3 is being trotted out the same way. Difference is this, C3 proponents believe in reducing ND's..C1 proponents believes in ending the assault.

    So you can see the focus. Both want to end the assault, both want gun safety and no ND's. But each has a different focus. Both sides can and will agree with out a doubt, that no one wants their family hurt from accidental shooting, nor does either side want to lose a gun fight protecting the same loved ones.

    I guess as a C1 proponent, I will state it this way. When it comes down to life or death. and having only one life, I am going to take the Bad Guy's life.

    And I never ever under estimate my opponent. Never. And I will take every advantage I can.

    There is no such thing as a fair gun fight.

    NOTE: Does not matter whether I am down here in the 5th ward in Houston or home in Richmond on the Golf Course, I have the exact same level of awareness no matter what.
     
  5. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

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    Your response is received and duly noted.

    I've hung out quite a bit in Houston, too. Some years back I rode the Houston to Austin MS-150 bike ride on a borrowed mountain bike. The ride almost killed me, but I didn't get shot at once!:supergrin:
     
    #845 PhotoFeller, Mar 20, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  6. The Texans must have been Playing..Plus the only thing you have to worry about from Houston to Austin is big bugs and cars.
     
  7. dwbG30SF

    dwbG30SF Member

    147
    1
    I only chose these two quotes from your post, because I'm not sure you understand just how SAFE a Glock really is to carry, in Condition One, or not.

    Just check this out from the GLOCK website. IMO it's a very safe gun to carry in C1, very safe in the right hands that is.

    GLOCK pistols are equipped with the “Safe
    Action”® System, a fully automatic safety system
    consisting of three passive, independently oper-
    ating, mechanical safeties, which sequentially
    disengage when the trigger is pulled and auto-
    matically reengage when the trigger is released.

    [​IMG]
    Trigger Safety > above ^

    The trigger safety is incorporated into the trigger in the form of a lever and when in the forward position, blocks the trigger from moving rearward. To fire the pistol, the trigger safety and the trigger itself, must be deliberately depressed at the same time. If the trigger safety is not depressed, the trigger will not move rearwards and allow the pistol to fire.
    If the trigger is in the forward position the pistol
    may be loaded.

    [​IMG]
    Firing Pin Safety > above ^

    The spring-loaded firing pin safety projects into the firing pin channel and mechanically blocks the firing pin from moving forward. When the trigger is being moved rearwards, a vertical extension of the trigger bar pushes the firing pin safety upwards, clearing the firing pin channel. During the slide cycling process, the firing pin safety automatically reengages.

    [​IMG]
    Drop Safety > above ^

    The rear part of the trigger bar, which has a cruciform shape, rests with both arms on the drop safety shelf located in the trigger mechanism housing. When the trigger is pulled to the rear, the trigger bar begins to move down off the shelf until finally separating from the firing pin lug. During the slide cycling process, the trigger bar is lifted and caught by the firing pin lug. The trigger bar is reengaged by the firing pin lug.

    I'm sure you've seen or heard of the 3 safety features that each and every Glock incorporates, and they actually work.

    I'm only trying to help clarify how safe it is to carry a Glock at the ready, in C1.

    Can't we just all get along?
     
    #847 dwbG30SF, Mar 20, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  8. vandros

    vandros 10mm fan

    164
    0
    Yes, glock's safeties are great and many proponents of C3 understand them well.

    Would glocks be more dangerous without them? Sure. Do they make C1 carrying as safe as C3 carrying? Nope. Can we all get along? Yep. :)

    Love your avatar, btw...
     
    #848 vandros, Mar 20, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  9. dwbG30SF

    dwbG30SF Member

    147
    1
    I would never suggest that C1 was as safe as C3, but it could certainly be more productive in a life threatening scenerio. That split second it takes to rack the slide back, then get the pistol on target, could cost your life, or a the life of a loved one. And that's a gamble I'm not willing to take. That's why I practice, and practice, then practice some more.

    Sure, C1 may not be for everyone, but it's the only way I've carried for the past 30 years, without one mishap. And I will continue to do so.

    Hey thanks for the compliment on my avatar.
    Take care dude.
     
  10. Those three safety devices in the Glock may prevent the gun from firing unless the trigger is pulled but, that's not the argument. Very nice cutaway pics though. Thanks for posting them.
     
  11. Long thread... and definitely not the first of these I've read on a bunch of forums.

    I am 100% a C1 carrier, despite some Israeli training early on :). If asked, I always recommend serious training before anyone carries a firearm. Holy cow I've seen some sketchy things done with carry guns. Makes me cringe just to think about it. A common problem is holstering the gun safely. E.g. all sorts of things can go wrong when you're holstering--shirt or cord gets into the trigger guard, etc. So, I guess if people aren't going to get the training, and can't manipulate their CCW safely, then C3 is a decent solution.
     
  12. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

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    Your perfect record over 30 years makes a powerful statement that training, experience and extraordinary caution can result in error free performance.

    The Glock Safe Action System is cool, but it doesn't prevent the pistol from firing if the trigger is pulled.
     
    #852 PhotoFeller, Mar 20, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  13. dwbG30SF

    dwbG30SF Member

    147
    1
    You are right PhotoFeller, experience and training are paramont for C1. If a person does not possess these skills, then by all means they should not utilize C1.

    But if you are going to CC in C1, then for the love of God, please get the training that this type of carry requires.

    It's up to us, as advocates of the 2nd Amendment to be responsible and knowledgable, in order to set forth the right example for others.

    Gun owners like us, can either shed a negative or a positive light on our right to carry our weapons, either open or concealed. Which ever way you prefer to carry, let's do it the right way.

    You guys are great, all of you, and I respect every opinion.
     
    #853 dwbG30SF, Mar 20, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2013
  14. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

    4,267
    169
    Amen. Walk before you run. And don't run if it isn't necessary.
     
    #854 PhotoFeller, Mar 20, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  15. Arc Angel

    Arc Angel Deus Vult!

    6,920
    2
    :) Ten years and umpteen thousand read and perused posts ago I might have bought into Glock's, 'party line'; but that was ten years and umpteen thousand posts ago! In the interim I've read more posts about what can AND has gone wrong with loaded Glock pistols that (like most things in life) I take Glock, GmbH's claims of, 'perfection' with a large dose of, 'purgative salts'. ;)

    Contrary to prevailing popular internet lore, Glock pistols are cheap, expediently manufactured, plastic-frame pistols; and, in my considered opinion, should be treated and handled that way. Unfortunately most of humanity is naive in their thinking, prejudice in their thoughts, and freely given to fanciful flights of imagination, and (otherwise) chasing strong emotional whims. (If you don't believe me, stop and reflect for a moment on the exact nature and quality (or apparent lack thereof) to political leadership throughout the Western World, today!) :freak:

    The current design, manufacture, and popularity of cheap plastic pistols is, but, one more example of mankind's increasing inability to either effectively govern themselves, or show any particular regard for the well-being of others. In my experience ALL of these pretensioned, striker-fired, cheap plastic pistols lack the inherent safeguards and user-manipulated features necessary to make them genuinely safe for the largely inexperienced general public to so frequently and freely employ.

    What I've done in this thread, the thoughts I've expressed, and the insights I've attempted to share I WILL NEVER DO AGAIN. Everyman rises or falls on the basis of his own individual perception. One of the first lessons I learned while studying the Humanities is that: Most people are, quite frankly, too stupid to even so much as recognize what is or isn't good for them. (The devil's, 'stock and trade'!) :supergrin:

    My own mother who was eminently successful at her chosen profession, and as cerebral and intellectually brilliant as she was physically beautiful once glanced over at me while I was struggling to work my way through some sort of knotty problem, and said to me, 'Son, if you think that you can rely on others to either tell you the truth or figure that problem out for you, I'm telling you, right now, that you can't!' 'Either you learn, 'How' to think for yourself, and discover the, 'right answers' all by yourself and with only a minimum of outside assistance, or you are, more than likely, going to fail.'

    In the ten years that I've been on Glock Talk I've read and seen enough evidence to prove that: (1) Glock's advertising literature says one thing; and (2) user field-experience with Glock pistols reveals another entirely different proposition. What is more, this observation on my part doesn't even begin to take into consideration the widely varying personal skill levels, degrees of self-discipline, or myriad physical circumstances Glock owner/users experience, everyday, with their cheap plastic pistols.

    All life is a gift from God; and it is, also, 'a discipline' as well. For some people, and sometimes, getting shot in the foot, or killing the person standing next to them is a necessary and unavoidable lesson that one, or more, of those involved just had to learn. As for myself? Well, in a PERFECT WORLD I do not believe there would be ANY pretensioned, striker-fired, cheap plastic pistols, AND only small necessity to carry in C-1. (Obviously, we do not live in a perfect world; AND, guess what? Glock pistols along with the people who use them aren't perfect either.)

    Now, go ahead and do whatever suits your fancy without any further interference from me.


    :wavey:
     
    #855 Arc Angel, Mar 21, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  16. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

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    AA-

    I've read your posts carefully, one and all, and I've gained valuable insights from them.

    I agree with your views about the pitfalls of carrying Glocks in C1, particularly by untrained, inexperienced people. You and I and others who have stepped up in this thread have an important point of view to share about carry mode. However, our word is not gospel. All we can hope to do is cause people to think about their carry mode options during a process of preparation to take up CC.

    In the end, if folks understand the responsibility and accountability of their decisions under the law, have an understanding of the risk of ND versus the low probability of attack, realize that Glock pistols don't have a safety that prevents unintended trigger operation, and embrace the idea that training and experience are absolutely essential to become competent with a deadly weapon, the final decision of carry mode is up to each individual. Your ideas and mine are nothing more than fodder for thought.

    I don't expect anyone to jump from C1 to C3 because of something I've posted. I just hope some folks will chew on the ideas offered and consider which carry mode is most sensible for them given their personal circumstances.

    Thanks for taking the time to be part of this thread. I appreciate your point of view on the safety considerations that are of utmost importance in this discussion. You've been doggedly committed to the prevention of NDs as long as I've been reading your posts.
     
    #856 PhotoFeller, Mar 21, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  17. SCmasterblaster

    Millennium Member

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    Well with Glocks there are no NDs or ADs if one's finger is off of the trigger.
     
  18. You don't get out much do you? I don't mean to be sarcastic...uh, yes I do.

    The above statement is only partly true. Taken at face value it is blantly false. There have been several recorded incidents of ADs or NDs due to other factors besides one's finger.

     
  19. Can you support this with data? Did the gun fire without the trigger being pressed? I think the point was that a Glock in a modern holster in C1 isn't going to fire?
     


  20. I would also be very interested in seeing this data as well.
     

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