CCW: One in the chamber or not?

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by ArlenGunClub, Jan 24, 2013.

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  1. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

    Gotcha. Do you carry a Glock often?

    Wanna kill these ads? We can help!
  2. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936
    Millennium Member

    I typically carry a Sig or Smith J-Frame.

  3. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

    Roger that. If the 200 lb. bad guy is on top of ya, the J-frame is probably a good choice.
  4. SCmasterblaster

    Millennium Member

    It is good for us here in VT. I carry my G17 24/7/365 here in Hartford, except to the Post Office to get my daily mail.
  5. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

    After this long discussion, I'm thinking very seriously about having a Cominolli manual safety installed on one of my G19s. A shop in Texas (Ten Ring Precision) does these installations for $133, including the kit.

    Adding the Comnolli safety does not void the Glock warranty. It does not affect the factory Glock safety mechanisms. It operates like a 1911 thumb safety with a distinct tactile sensation when it is snicked off. Having it put on by a gunsmith that is very familiar with the installation is worth the extra cost.

    That's my thinking today. 1911 guys will understand why this enhancement to the Glock design makes sense. Maybe my next involvement in a C1 vs.C3 thread will have new insights to share.

    Fits all model Glock pistols.
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    The safety has no effect on factory function, trigger pull or internal working of your Glock.
    With manual safety engaged, all Glock passive safeties are locked in place.
    Pistol can be loaded and unloaded with manual safety engaged, thus diminishing the chance of an unintentional discharge.
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    #385 PhotoFeller, Feb 24, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  6. happyguy

    happyguy Man, I'm Pretty

    "Glocks have all the safeties they need"

    "Don't mess with PERFECTION.

    "If you think you need a safety buy a gun that comes with one.

    In 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...


    Comrade Happyguy :)
  7. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

    The NYPD publishes an annual report of officer weapon discharges, including unintentional discharges. The following excerpt is from the 2011 report:

    "Three of the 13 firearms discharged during purely unintentional incidents were weapons that were not the officers’ regular service or off-duty firearms—two were perpetrator’s weap- ons, and one was an ESU Glock 19 equipped with an under-the-barrel flashlight.
    More notably, six of the remaining ten firearms were also manufactured by Glock (three model 19s and three model 26s). In fact, with regard to officers experiencing unintentional dis- charges while loading or unloading their own firearms, 75 percent of such incidents involved Glocks. Their overrepresentation in this category has been seen consistently over the past five years: since 2007, there have been 31 incidents in which officers unintentionally discharged their own firearms during loading/unloading, and 22 of those incidents—71 percent—have involved Glocks."

    Yep, them Glock pistols is the safest!!:tongueout:
    #387 PhotoFeller, Feb 24, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  8. Did the report specify why the unintentional discharges occurred?
  9. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

    Mostly loading and unloading.
  10. So did the discharges occur because a finger was on the trigger, or did the firearm malfunction and fire simply by racking or something like that?
  11. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

    Finger on the trigger in all cases.
    #391 PhotoFeller, Feb 24, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  12. That's what I expected. Sounds like they were being careless, perhaps clueless.

    Thanks for the info.
  13. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

    I think its interesting that the NYPD Glocks are equipped with 12 pound triggers to help prevent NDs:

    "Additionally, all NYPD weapons are also modified to have a heavier-than-stock 12-lb trigger pull; this dimin- ishes the likelihood of unintentional discharges but also affects aiming. Nevertheless, it bal- ances the fact that NYPD pistols do not have safeties, and are carried “hot,” with a round in the chamber."

    These guys are trained, I'm sure, so "clueless" doesn't seem to be a plausible explanation.
    #393 PhotoFeller, Feb 24, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  14. Now that's quite an eyeopener. They are definitely not clueless. Even so, they managed to get those 12 pound triggered guns to fire unexpectedly and dangerously. That's extraordinary. I suppose there's also the possibility they consider the 12 pound trigger so heavy that an ND or AD is extremely unlikely, and thus there are times when carelessness produces a serious problem. Trusting safeties to always work isn't good, obviously.
  15. happyguy

    happyguy Man, I'm Pretty

    There is no way of knowing exactly what happened in all those unintentional discharges. I expect some were dry firing and some may have been playing fast draw. Cops are no more immune from childish or irresponsible behavior with firearms than the rest of the population. And some have been known to lie to cover their azzes too.

    Considering the number of NYPD guy there are that isn't a terrible number, all things considered.

    Comrade Happyguy :)
    #395 happyguy, Feb 25, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  16. happyguy

    happyguy Man, I'm Pretty

    Back on topic.

    I have never heard anything bad about the Comminolli safety except from some of the fanboys who've never used one.

    Comrade Happyguy :)
  17. PhotoFeller

    Silver Member

    Here are a few additional excerpts from the NYPD report:




    Reported NDs amounted to 42% of intentional discharge incidents in adverserial conflicts with bad guys. Nearly all NDs were with Glocks.

    It's also interesting that the report states with clarity that "...NYPD pistols do not have safeties...".

    "A firearms discharge in which an officer intentionally discharges a firearm in defense of self or another during an adversarial conflict with a subject."

    "In 2011, there were 15 reported incidents of unintentional firearms discharge, involving 15 officers. (There were 21 such incidents in 2010.)
    There were six officers injured in the 15 incidents. Two sustained through-and-through in- juries to their thighs, one shot herself in the buttocks, two were struck by rounds or spall in their hands, and one was struck in his ankle. No officers were killed as a result of these inci- dents."
    #397 PhotoFeller, Feb 25, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  18. In the chamber when carrying. Not in chamber when next to my bed.
  19. tnedator

    Lifetime Member

    For me, it isn't just that 1/2 second, because lets face it, we often have that much variance in how we carry (location wise). Let's say the difference between OWB with a jacket, vs. IWB with a shirt, then if you happen to be tucked, even slower.

    So, no doubt there is a time factor, and under stress, if you flub the rack, then it might be even longer (assuming you don't use something like a Kahr that isn't reliable with a slingshot rack).

    For me, as I've mentioned earlier in this thread, the bigger issue is making the assumption that everything will be perfect in that critical moment when you need to defend your life that you will be able to use both hands. I'm not talking about the arm hanging limp at your side because you were shot in it (one of the reasons they teach one handed chamberings), but instead the more realistic scenarios such as trying to fend off an attacker with your weak hand, while drawing your weapon, or a struggle where you are on the ground with the attacker on top of you, or countless other scenarios where it is impossible to use both hands to rack a weapon, and where attempting to rack the weapon on your belt or boot would be impossible or very, very difficult.

    That said, it is like everything in life, something that has to be decided by balancing the pros and cons and likelihoods. Many on here that are proponents of C3 justify it in large part based on the fact that chances are they will never have to use a gun to defend themselves. This is true. Granted, that's the same argument that many in the anti-gun community use to argue why nobody needs to carry period.

    Personally, I'm hoping and praying that I am one of those people that NEVER have to draw their weapon to defend themselves and that the only time I ever fire my weapon is at the range. That said, there are a LOT of cases where people need to use a weapon to defend themselves and if the time comes that I have to do so, it doesn't matter if the odds are 1 in a million or 1 in 5 trillion that a person will have to use a weapon to defend themselves, because the bad guy won't be saying, "hey, since the odds were against you ever having to defend yourself, I realize you probably aren't ready, why don't you take 10 seconds to compose yourself and then I will attack you."

    Fact is that you either take the "hope/pray for the best and be prepared for the worst" or you just bury your head in the sand and pretend that you will never be that 1 in a million.
  20. tnedator

    Lifetime Member

    The other thing that is interesting, and I point I was trying to make to those that say they routinely switch between C1 and C3, is that the most likely time for an AD is loading/unloading. If you routinely (some made it sound like daily or multiple times a day), go from C1 to C3, then you are GREATLY increasing the chances of an ND.

    IMHO, the most important thing is to choose a method and stick with it. If you think C3 is adequate, then let it be adequate whether in Wal-mart or driving through a dangerous neighborhood.

    Then, leave your weapon loaded in that config all the time, except when at the range firing it, and at home cleaning it. When at home cleaning it, load/unload in a safe direction (or even create a sand or other bullet trap to point towards).

    If you want to dry fire on a regular basis, buy a second, "range" gun, that is empty except when you are practicing at the range. Use that gun to dry fire at home (obviously, checking immediately before dry firing and after any pause or interruption) and leave you carry weapon loaded and holstered.

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