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Buffalo Bore Irresponsible?

Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by cloudbuster, Jul 20, 2011.


  1. cloudbuster

    cloudbuster
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    Over in this thread:

    http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1355957

    someone mentions that Buffalo Bore has a ".32 ACP +P" round. Of course, there is not +P standard for .32 ACP, so all that means is an overloaded .32 ACP round.

    In their tech data and FAQ it becomes pretty obvious that they've done no extensive metallurgical failure testing. They have no idea how many rounds of this crap you can shoot through a given handgun before it blows up in your face.

    About all they can say is "we've never heard of any problems," and "the use of +P ammo in these little guns should be limited to just enough to test reliable feeding and point of impact, then carry the ammo in your LCP in the event you need it, but don't go plinking with it. "

    That's a pretty vague frickin' standard to trust with life and limb: "don't go plinking with it."

    Bottom line: it's beyond spec. and if you shoot to much of it you're probably going to experience a dramatic failure.

    That failure point may be completely different for a 50-year-old PPK, a 1-year-old P32 and a 20-year-old Beretta. You don't know. The round that makes it go boom could be the first, the 10th, the 50th. All you know is that it's more than your gun was designed to handle and eventually you'll have to pay the piper.

    Kel-Tec specifically advises against the ammo:

    "We don’t recommend using any +P at all in our P32, specifically Buffalo Bore."

    The fact that they offer this ammo makes me distrust them as a company.
     

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    #1 cloudbuster, Jul 20, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  2. RYT 2BER

    RYT 2BER
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    Well it is kind of ridiculous... .32 is pretty anemic so if a person isnt happy with it, they should just step up to a bigger caliber vs overloading it..

    JMO
     

  3. fnfalman

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    What do you want them to do? Test every gun on the market with their ammo until something breaks?

    Their ammo is expensive. How many rounds of their ammo is the typical person going to spend money on and shoot through their guns?
     
  4. cloudbuster

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    Exactly. Respect the responsible limits of the caliber.
     
  5. fnfalman

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    So, there should be no +P loading for any caliber?
     
  6. cloudbuster

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    No, I want them to say "Hmmm, SAAMI standards exist for a reason. It would be irresponsible of us to offer ammo like this unless we can point to a gun (such as a Ruger Blackhawk for hot .45 colt loads) that is specifically rated to be safe with these pressures."
     
  7. cloudbuster

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    God, no, that's not what I'm saying. There are SAAMI standard for +P loads in some calibers. Manufacturers make guns tested to standards to confidently label them ".38 Special +P" or "9mm +P."

    No such standard exists for .32 ACP (or .380 ACP, another of their "+P" offerings). I doubt they can point to a single manufacturer that is comfortable with loading those rounds to those pressures in their guns, and it's reckless of them to put it on the market.
     
    #7 cloudbuster, Jul 20, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  8. joel_conley

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  9. Zombie Steve

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    Well, their niche in the market is top end loads for a given caliber. So on the one hand, it doesn't surprise me. On the other hand, I'm a great believer that if you need more performance, get a bigger gun and load it to modest pressures.
     
  10. Scared_of_zombies

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    Some people want to wring out every ounce of performance from the gun they carry, not simply carry a larger gun. Doing this comes with inherent risks. If you understand those risks you can evaluate if they are acceptable to you and your situation. Will an extra 100-150 f.p.s. make a noticeable difference in the target you shoot? For me the answer is, not likely, and thats why I haven't taken the plunge with buffalo bore.

    Some people feel that such a difference in performance is worth the slight risk of catastrophic failure. I respect their decision, but for now the decision for me differs from theirs.
     
  11. Bilbo Bagins

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    For the record Kel Tec also advises not to Use Cor-bon ammo in the P32 as well because its a little hot. The P32 is a >7oz gun that is made out of plastic and aluminum, and some steel. Give them a break :rofl:
     
    #11 Bilbo Bagins, Jul 20, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  12. DEADEYEGUY

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    Some of the .32 and .380 ammo is not anemic. Amemic compared to a 10mm? Yes. But I've had some Spanish military .32 and .380 that was obviously a max load for those calibers. Military ammo is loaded hot to help to be certain auto's cycle properly. I fired some out of a couple of my small .32's and .380's not knowing how potent it was. Damn it stung!
    It didn't blow the gun up but I wouldn't run much through one of the little .32's or .380's. It's probably fine in the near full sized .32's and .380's. But a bit much for the small guns. And no matter what the caliber "anemic" or not an overcharged load will blow a gun up. I had a .380 go from some Georgia Arms fmj stuff that was not listed as hot.
    Glad I had my safety glasses on. I've used Georgia Arms for years and up until that point never had a problem. I called them up and they made a bug fanfare out of all the things they were going to do. In the end they did nothing. As a courtesy to me Kel Tec rebuilt the gun for me. They certainly didn't have to. But if you dance to close to the edge with any caliber it can be dangerous.
     
  13. Tony Rumore

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    I wouldn't call it irresponsible. You can decide if you want to shoot it in your gun or not.

    Are you saying that you don't trust your own judgement when decided which ammo to fire through your gun?

    Do you need the safety police to make these decisions on your behalf?

    Tony
     
  14. Spiffums

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    They also say not to use 9mm+P in the P11/PF9s.
     
  15. BobbyT

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    No they don't, they say not to use it all the time.

    IE fill up with cheap stuff at the range, and keep the self defense rounds for carry--fitting nicely with the pistol's design.
     
  16. cloudbuster

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    I'm not advocating that they be forced not to sell it, no. That doesn't mean I'm wrong to discuss it on a public forum does it?

    I can label something irresponsible (because I think running that stuff through any gun is an accident waiting to happen), but still leave it to people to make their own decisions, can't I?

    I'm not one of those who thinks that the right solution to every problem is a law.

    I use the term irresponsible, because if I was in their shoes, and was thinking of selling some hot .32 ACP, I'd feel uncomfortable selling it to strangers not knowing if they were well-informed enough to know what they were getting into.

    I guess being ill-informed is its own punishment, but I'd still feel guilty if I found out later the guy was missing a finger because he didn't realize he shouldn't put that hot ammo through his little aluminum and plastic mousegun.
     
    #16 cloudbuster, Jul 20, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  17. cloudbuster

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    And indeed, I do give them (and myself) a break by only putting standard pressure ammo through it. Fortunately I know better.

    ETA: The Walther PPK is a much more solidly-built .32 auto -- I have an email out to them, and I'll be curious what their opinion is about running .32 +P through it.
     
    #17 cloudbuster, Jul 20, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  18. Berto

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    It could also be that they load the .32/.380acp up to maximum std pressure and simply label it +P to cover their asses. As was said, there are european and spanish loads in these rounds that could very well be 'overpressure' too, like Santa Barbara stuff.
    It would be one thing to accuse them of being irresponsible if there were hoardes of folks coming out with KB'd guns, but there isn't....and BB does state their intended use for the ammo.
    At some point people gotta think for their friggin selves here.
     
  19. cloudbuster

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    True, but I'll bet the sample size is sufficiently small that we're not likely to hear much.

    They advertise the rounds having almost double the muzzle energy of standard pressure rounds, so I have to think that they're loaded up to more than max std pressure.

    Anyway, I'm not saying "write your Congressman" I just posted this as a heads-up. Not everyone who goes to pick up a box of ammo is necessarily very well informed. I'm sure plenty of people pick it up thinking "Well, if it wasn't safe, they wouldn't sell it."

    And I bet it's not so unsafe that you're literally taking your life in your hands with every shot -- the guns are built with some tolerance for over-pressure, but really, I just like my guns too much to beat them up like that. A .32 Auto is what it is. If I want the muzzle energies they're advertising, I carry a .380 or .38 Sp.
     
  20. Hotsteelcoldbeer

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    Cloud, I think you are on to something.
     
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