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Anyone use less than lethal ammo?

Discussion in 'Tactical Shotguns' started by wrx04, Dec 4, 2010.


  1. wrx04

    wrx04
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    I can think of a couple pros and cons to LTL ammo in a HD shotgun. Just wanted to know what you guys think. After much thought, i think good old 00 Buck is the way to go, but i may be wrong. What do you think?

    FTR, the only good reasons i can think of for LTL ammo are:
    1. You can come out shooting at ANY threat, no matter what, and be justified since it likely won't kill. (even if its drunk kids trying to steal something).

    2. It "looks good" in court if your first round is LTL, since you gave a them a "chance"

    3. LTL rounds could still be deadly at HD range but makes you "look better" in court

    4. They are a poor excuse and give the bad guy a chance of killing you first....you should have come out full force when you had the chance. Your life and the life of your family depend on it. 00 Buck from the start....period.

    What do you think?
     

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  2. CAcop

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    We only use less lethal rounds (less than lethal as a description is inaccurate, they still can kill) when we have someone with a firearm nearby. And if possible a third person to handcuff.
     

  3. Critias

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    If I don't need to use lethal force on someone, I won't point a shotgun at 'em. I don't want to be worried about what I have loaded, how it's going to look in court, what a prosecuting attorney is going to say -- if I'm thinking about someone enough that they need my shotgun in their face, then they're ALL I can afford to be thinking about right that second.
     
    #3 Critias, Dec 5, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2010
  4. DPris

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    1. Totally wrong.
    2. See #1.
    3. See #1.
    4. True.
    Denis
     
  5. MrMurphy

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    It's your house.

    Lethal is the option. They should not be there.

    Toss in the fact that you NEVER use both types of loads in one gun.
     
  6. -gunut-

    -gunut-
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    No point. If lethal force is justified, throw some lead. If it isn't, you shouldn't be pointing a firearm at them. Most people who shoot in a SD scenario never see the inside of a court room. If your situation is shifty, the shotgun is going to look better than a AK. Less than lethal is not needed in civilian life. O.c. Is a different story.
     
  7. David Armstrong

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    First, as CAcop pointed out, there is no such theng as "less than lethal" ammo, it is "less lethal." Thus, the potential for death is always present. With that in mind, no, I don't see a problem with it given that one uses the same rules of engagement that one would use for lethal force. It would need to be presented appropriately in court. I don't like it personally or recommend it, but for some folks I can see a use.
     
    #7 David Armstrong, Dec 5, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2010
  8. aippi

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    It is an option for educated gun owners who understand the issue and the application and are confident in their abilty with their weapon to have this as a first round in an HD weapon. Anyone can of course can be justified in dismissing the use of it for themself but have no right to dismiss it for others.
     
  9. james plant

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    00 buckshot for me. I hope I never have to use it.
     
  10. DPris

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    JD,
    You should know very well that in many, if not most, jurisdictions it'd be considered deadly force & subject to the same types of restrictions, scrutiny, and potential prosecution as firing buckshot.
    That's aside from the "if you live through it" factor.

    It does not make you "look better" in court, or anywhere else.
    It is a very bad idea, both legally & tactically.
    It may be an option, along with the "I just wanna scare 'em" blank "home defense" 12-gauge loads promoted by one company, but it's a foolish one.

    Educated & confident or not, it should not be encouraged in any way.
    Denis
     
  11. Aceman

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    I have to go with 'If I feel the need" to come out with the barrel leading, and I end up pulling the trigger, I intend TO STOP the target.

    I would never come out blasting without knowing the target. and remember - Brandon Lee was killed with a blank. high power projectiles are dangerous period.

    I do believe that people shot in your house at odd hours generally should be excused from a trial. If you find me in your house at night, I will have been highly announced - clearly in a non-threatening position, making my intention to se the toilet clear, or whatever. Anyone not in that circumstance - good luck.
     
    #11 Aceman, Dec 5, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2010
  12. DPris

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    Most of the rubber shot loads are intended to be used with training & in a specific way.
    They are not intended for direct torso contact, but for skip-firing off a hard surface where possible, and taking out legs.

    I tested a typical rubber shot load a while back, it completely penetrated a dummy wall section I built with sheetrock on both sides of a 2x4 frame.
    That stuff CAN cause serious bodily injury, which is why in a non-police scenario it's generally regarded legally as the same as firing a load of regular shot.

    It's not just a little sting, as many people seem to think it is.

    Even if you survive the event, and are not prosecuted for using it in a situation where it was the only round fired, a civil lawsuit could easily eat you alive.
    Denis
     
  13. dnuggett

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    Don't you mean you wanted to stop the threat? If the time ever comes that you are forced to defend yourself with deadly force it's generally accepted that it is not a good idea to state that you intended to harm the person you acted against. In actuality they intended to harm you (or so you believed) and you were forced to react in a manner in which you thought was necessary to stop the threat.
     
  14. vafish

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    The only use I can see for LTL ammo like rubber buckshot is if you lived out in the country where discharge of a firearm is legal and you wanted to keep your neighbours dog from crapping in your yard. A load of rubber buckshot into the dog every time he came into your yard would eventually train them to stay away.

    Other then that, at least by VA laws any time you point a gun at someone you must be in fear for your life or acting for a 3rd person who would be justified themselves to use a gun for self defense. If you just go pointing a gun at someone who is not a threat to you then you are guilty of assault with a deadly weapon.
     
  15. David Armstrong

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    Some of you seem to be missing an important point. If you are legally allowed to use deadly force, you are also allowed to use less lethal force in that same situation. If one wishes to do that as an additional step I don't think there will be much of a legal problem. Again, I don't like the idea personally, but I don't see any real problem with it, again recognizing the appropriate standards it should be used in.
     
    #15 David Armstrong, Dec 5, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2010
  16. DPris

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    If you're in a situation that justifies deadly force, use deadly force. Don't dink around with anything less.
    It's you who are missing the point.

    The use of rubber buckshot in a home situation is a bad idea for more than just one reason.
    It gains you no real advantage and arrives with a boatload of baggage, both in your own personal injury potential from wasting time in effectively dealing with a deadly threat, and in legal liabilities that can follow its use.

    It's a feel-good, I-really-don't-want-to-hurt-anybody, I-just-want-to-scare-them-off approach.

    In a deadly force threat scenario, why would you want to avoid immediately & effectively repelling the threat?
    Why would you deliberately reduce your ability to do so?

    Denis
     
  17. Z71bill

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    I will only use less than lethal ammo if I am sure the BG is using LTL ammo. :upeyes:
     
  18. #5xbr

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    ahh z71bill ya beat me to it-good call!
     
  19. Draven21

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    LTL=pointless
     
  20. Boxerglocker

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    I was looking at this option for a while myself... have to counsel with a lawyer/shooting enthusiast friend of mine.

    My thoughts, you have a intruder in your home... you know he is unarmed but inside your property. You confront the BG, he turns tail and attempts to run out the same way he came in, with your wife's jewelry box in his hands. You take his legs out from underneath him with a single shot of LTL rubber buckshot at 5 yards.
    Wrong or right??? Justified??? :upeyes:
     
    #20 Boxerglocker, Dec 6, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010