Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

anyone intrested in heavy 10mm bullets, read this and give me some input.

Discussion in '10mm Reloading Forum' started by jlmomaha, Feb 6, 2010.

  1. jlmomaha


    Mar 8, 2009
    I have been casting bullets for a long time now, and have always used Lee tumble lube molds for my pistols. I have for awhile now been thinking of getting a custom mold for 10mm bullets something like 250gr, 275gr or 300gr, and using the lee tumble lube style bullet since I have never had any leading issues with them.

    For the nose I was thinking truncated, round or semi wad cutter, I could make them soft "9-13 BNH" for hunting, and hard "35 BNH" for better penetration on dangerous animals.
    I could also have them copper plated "at Industrial Plating Inc here in Omaha".

    If there is a high demand for plated I may only do those and keep it at a price comperable to the cast 230gr DT bullets at about $26-$27 per 100.
    Also I can still offer soft or hard bullets in copper plating, and will adjust the BNH per request.

    I would like to see if there are any people interested in this, if so lets work on a weight and design. I will offer them in plated or cast, soft or hard.

    Far as price I was thinking $17-$18 per 100 non plated, and $26-$27 for plated.
    All this is negotiable and before I invest in having a custom mold made, I need to know that there is a demand.

    Please give me input and let me know what nose style and bullet weight you would like to see in a 10mm bullet, we will decide on a final weight and design, and if there is a demand for it we will get them made..

    Thank you all very much, I think this will be a good project.

    Jerry M.
  2. jlmomaha


    Mar 8, 2009
    Based on some input I have recieved these are the updates

    Only plated bullets will be offered.

    Flat point seems to be the preferred design.

    It seems that 250gr and 275gr are the preferred weights but I need to decide on only one.

    The price will be $26 per hundred

    There will be an approximate 4 week wait due to plating.

    I will update with the final design and weight in a day or two, these will start being offered in spring, let me know if your intrested..

    Thank you

  3. MakeMineA10mm

    MakeMineA10mm * * * * Millennium Member Lifetime Member

    Feb 13, 1999
    Central Illinois
    Hi Jerry,
    There is a subtle but clear difference between starting up a group buy (for say a custom bullet mould) and offering a product for sale.

    If you are offering a product for sale, you must go to the forums for selling products and not list them here.

  4. jlmomaha


    Mar 8, 2009
    mm10mm, this is still in the developing stages and not for sale yet, this post is to get input on what people want to see in a bullet, then when they are ready to sell I will post over there, I figured it was kinda self explanatory, but now I hope that it has been cleared up, and since this is a product that when offered will be for people to reload, I think it is right where it needs to be..

    Thank you for your concern though it is appreciated
  5. cuteo101


    Oct 3, 2009
  6. MakeMineA10mm

    MakeMineA10mm * * * * Millennium Member Lifetime Member

    Feb 13, 1999
    Central Illinois
    No problem, Jerry.

    For my part, I'll say this: I've loaded 10mm for 20 years with heavy to light bullets. I've also designed cast bullets in many calibers.

    I can definitively say that for the 10mm, other than possibly in a revolver, you're going WAAAAY too heavy.

    For you to seat a bullet weighing as little as 250grs (on the light end of your range) at an OAL that will work through a semi-auto, the base of the bullet is going to invade so much of the powder space that the heel (the bottom corner) is going to run into the thickening part of the case (the web) and cause case bulges that will cause chambering problems. Even if that problem is overcome (by designing in a very long tapered bevel base), the space left in the bottom of the case for powder will be reduced to the point that you'll be lucky to get 600-700fps velocity.

    Lots of testing has determined that the max combination of of velocity and bullet weight hits at the point between 165grs and 180grs. Heavier and you lose velocity at a precipitous rate. Lighter, and you can get much more velocity, but sectional density and overall energy available go down.

    I don't think you're going to get a super-penetrator for the 10mm more effective than a 185-210gr bullet. The 220gr bullet from Double Tap doesn't get as much penetration as a lighter bullet at a higher velocity and smaller meplat. (That large meplat design was adopted on the 220, to move as much weight out of the case as possible, and even if you adopt that design, trying to go to a 250gr bullet will be near-fruitless, IMO.)

    The ONE place that a super-heavy COULD work in 10mm is in a revolver. What you'd need to do is figure the length of the 610 cylinder's throats, subtract about .025" so that the bullets are below the end of the cylinder when loaded, and then figure a seating depth of a 180gr bullet (to leave the max powder space inside the case as possible to allow usable powder loads within pressure limits), and make your bullet that long (whatever weight that works out to...). Then, you'll also want to move your crimp groove to match up with the mouth of the case. What you'll wind up with is a bullet with a VERY long nose, but it will be the max you can get... The only trouble with this style of bullet is that they typically have leading problems, so you'll need to design in a very generous lube groove and BOTH tumble lube AND lube with a lubri-sizer.
  7. Tmygun


    Jan 17, 2010
    I was thinking the same thing, why would anyone need a bullet heavier than 200grs. in the 10mm auto? As MakeMineA10mm said, it would eat up powder space or cause feeding problems in a semi auto. Maybe, as suggested, it would work in a revolver. I know some guys shoot the 10mm out of the Thompson crack open pistol, maybe it would excell there if throated properly.

  8. jlmomaha


    Mar 8, 2009
    well some one better let the double tap people know that according to them I hear the 230 has better penetration than the 200, go figure?

    I am a machinist Im sure I have mentioned that, as well as a SBO so please understand that I have many tools that the common joe doesnt, and I have made the appropriate measurements and believe that 260gr will be optimal and with 6grs of 800x. It will far exceed your figures of 750fps, I dont know if your relying on a general knowledge of your understanding of the cartridge, but I prefer to use one of the handload ballistics programs, "i.e. Quick Load".

    If you own such a program please feel free to run the data, and please guys lets not be speculative it is demeaning. And people with limited foresight have already been damaging enough to this cartridge, so please post to contribute to the final design, and if in doubt of the performance of said cartridge please run the data on a handloading program and this will eliminate your doubts..

    Makeminea10mm, I appologize for not making it clear, but these will be plated bullets, so no leading issues, I put that up the other day but it was in the jumble of what I posted so let me restate;

    These will be plated bulets done at industrial plating inc here in Omaha Ne.
    the weight will be 260gr

    Let me touch on this leadind issue real quick, the 45 long colt using 300+ grains they work just fine, and actually have for MANY years, and using primitive lube. There are lots of cast bullet web sites that will help squash alot of those myths, I have been casting for a while no issues here with the leading issues..

    I just dont have time to combat all the misinformation that many people have been spouting as truths instead just leave those at home, and lets work on a bullet that will take the 10mm to the next level.

    Thank you all for your input, please continue to contribute design ideas but there is seeming to be a consensus umongst the dozens of E-mails and messages both from here and other sources. and think by the end of the week a decision will be made..

  9. Jlmomaha,

    What are the stats on each of your perspective loads...250 260 275?
    What kind of results have you been able to get from 200 and 230 that you have worked up?

    what barrel did you use?

    What case did you use and what was its condition after firing?
    How many loads can you safely get from your loads.

    I would hope penetration would be included in the stats.

    I think that would help others be able to provide input.

    Personally, if it can be done safely than why not. i think it would be nice to have a 10 mm Heavy as another option. It would add another characteristic to the 10 mm like shooting 45 lc rounds. More fun and bang for the weapon buck.

    I would like to see what about the keith semi wad cutter?
  10. jlmomaha


    Mar 8, 2009
    I dont have alot of time so ill be right to the point.
    Final load work ups "refering to my friends g-20 6" kkm"

    starline brass

    200gr=10gr 800x=1425 avg
    230gr=8.5 800x=1215 avg

    until I get a chance to try it myself I dont want to publish exact powder-charge-velocity, but the QL data seems positive that I can push a 260gr into the 900+fps range.
    The data will be published and sent out with orders, and of course start low work up

    now I have been torn between final bullet design and have been going back and forth between 250gr and 260gr.

    I have used in the past and do like the SWC, but keep in mind that these bullets will be plated and thus smooth, no grooves, so I have been thinking a FP with somewhere around .300 meplate.

    I will be taking suggestions until friday then friday night or sat I will announce the final design, feel free to message me or post on this thread.

    thank you all for your questions and advice please keep it coming.
  11. jlmomaha,

    My bad...plated....homer Simpson moment. I agree flat. Might as well go big...go with the 260 if it can be done safely and accurately.

  12. jlmomaha


    Mar 8, 2009
    lol no worries my friend, we are all here for the love of this cartridge, and I will add your vote of flat and 260 to the I am realy liking the way this is going, I was even kicking around the Idea of 240"ish"gr hollow point just for the cool but dont know how practical it would be, that heavy with that kind of SD go right through a person, so that kinda disqualifies it for home
  13. OH I don't know.:dunno: The idea of that kind of wound cavity would definitely be a plus. Besides I kind of like the idea of turning one persons cover into mere concealment. :whistling:LOL
  14. MakeMineA10mm

    MakeMineA10mm * * * * Millennium Member Lifetime Member

    Feb 13, 1999
    Central Illinois

    I took the liberty of having a bullet drawn up with your weight specification and taking into consideration the pure-lead nature of a plated bullet. To make your design as least-invasive as possible of the powder space, I specified a .350" meplat. Now, bear in mind that this wide of a nose may not feed through a semi-auto, BUT it gives your theory the biggest margin of benefit, because it moves the maximum amount of weight out of the case and into the nose.

    With this design, the bullet would invade the powder space .477" or so. (If you get rid of the crimp groove, you may be able to shorten up the length .005-.010" - not much.) At this point you are way into the taper of most 10mm cases webs. This is the problem developers ran into when trimming back 10mm brass to make the experimental rounds for 40S&W and why 40S&W has a sharper-tapered and shorter web than 10mm brass.

    Attached Files:

  15. jlmomaha


    Mar 8, 2009
    MMA10MM, ok I have already don the work by seating a 200gr bullet at the depth the 260 bullet would be and there are no issues.
    You really seem to be against this and I am wondering why?
    you stats say you a PO, I am assuming that is a parole or probation officer?, which leads me to ask about your back ground in such things as the development of a new bullet? Now I have read many of your posts and you seem to be a knowledgable man, but you seem to have it out for this design.
    So with this in mind what do you think would be an optimum weight, please dont say 200gr when we already know the 230 offers more penetration, we already went down that road when you made that comment about how the lighter ones had better penetration, and I corrected that, and in your defense I assumed you had a typo or got some figures confused.

    If you could answer those questions I would greatly appreciate it, thank you.

    And thank you to those of you who are truly intrested in this bullet.

    OK I re read your post let me hit on a couple more things real quick.

    1. double taps 230gr feeds fine, its meplate .32 you specify .35 that's about 1/32" not that big really, but I will mill off a couple dozen bullets and load em up them and report back.

    2. Am I understanding you correctly, that there will be .005-.010 of room for powder?
    bear in mind that your typical sheet of paper is about .004" thick, that is not much space and if your figures are right then there will be a problem.

    What I am going to do is re-seat a bullet to the depth and re-work my numbers one mor time and see if I can fig out how to get them up on here. Im not super techie outside my

    K im done ranting
    Thank you all
  16. jlmomaha


    Mar 8, 2009
    saw your post last..urgh
    I like the way you think, and just might mill the mold to allow me to lathe turn an insert that I can put to allow me to switch between flat point and hollow point ..
    and if I do your name is on the top of the
  17. jlmomaha


    Mar 8, 2009
    OK no pics yet but this is the final it wont work rebuttal because this should end it "unless your drinking the kool"

    I sunk a bullet with a length of .619" into a case for an OAL of 1.048". subtract 1.048" from 1.260" this leaves .212". Now add the .212" to the bullet length of .619" you get .830".... OK that means you can use a bullet length of .830 WOW, but what about powder capacity? Well there is .275" of case left, and I get 6gr of blue dot BEFORE powder compression!!
    Well the case diameter will be to wide well I get a diameter of .422" that is within any chamber diameter you'll find. I truly hope this resolves any doubts, I really like and appreciate this cartridge, and know what it is capable of and even without a demand for this bullet I would still make it, but thats not the case. I forsee thousands of these being wanted..

    Ok now lets hit on the points with out all the math to make sure it is undestandable, because that many numbers is darn

    Bullet length able to be used=.830" "or more"

    Powder capacity=.275" which translates into 6gr +/-.2gr of bluedot without compression

    Case diameter with bullet seated at this depth=.422"

    I bet there are alot of people reading this and smiling, because now we all know for sure that this will work!!!!
  18. MakeMineA10mm

    MakeMineA10mm * * * * Millennium Member Lifetime Member

    Feb 13, 1999
    Central Illinois
    Well, first off, let's get one thing clear: I'm not against your project. I couldn't stop your project if I wanted to. It's your time and money, if you want to spend it. I'm just trying to save you a little trouble, based on my experience loading this caliber.

    You said in a previous post (and you go at it more subtly above) that you've ran the numbers with an internal ballistics program and you implied that this software is better than my guess based on some (limited or not) experience I have loading the 10. Well, I hate to tell you, but people write those programs and the programs are based on formulas which do not turn out perfectly correct answers. In my experience (if that could be worth anything) the farther you get towards extremes in a loading situation, the less worthwhile or should we say "trustworthy" are those program's conclusions/recommendations. These programs are intended to be guides and it is incumbent upon the user to safely work up (or down) loads using them, no different than when one is using load data from a loading guide.

    The fact of the matter is in internal ballistics there are some certain clear principles which are incontrovertable. One of those is that there is point of diminishing returns when it comes to case capacity. IMO (whatever that is worth to you, or not) you've gone past that in the 10mm. (IMO that is the case with the 220gr and 230gr loads from DT as well. They work, but they not as well as the mid-weight bullets.)

    What I said earlier is that the DT 220gr doesn't penetrate as well as a mid-weight with a smaller meplat. The big meplat on the super-heavy designs (necessary to move weight out of the case, especially in a smaller case, such as we're working with in the 10mm) creates drag/resistance when penetrating something like a body (or ballistics gel) and ends up with the same or slightly less penetration along with less energy. This is comparing apples-to-apples (FMJ vs. FMJ or JHP vs. JHP - of same design). This isn't just my opinion. You can look it up. You haven't "corrected" anything. As far as "you better tell Double-Tap," goes, Mike and I are friends and I don't need to tell him anything. He is selling a product to meet the demand of his customers, and there are customers who desire a super-heavy 10mm bullet. He's worked on these designs, and he knows he's already topped out in terms of bullet weight.

    I find it amusing that you say I seem like "a knowledgeable man" and then go to all lengths to disprove my cautions/suggestions. There's nothing wrong with feeling passion for your project, but you did ask for suggestions/advice, and I'm simply offering it. You seem to be the one who cannot keep an open mind. One of the things you have to be careful about is not having so much compassion for a project that you lose sight of what's workable or not. I've had plenty of projects that didn't work out, and I now try to always seek out others to run them by before going too far down a path on a project. I encouraged Mike to start Double Tap and gave him some advice early on, and I'm pleased as punch with where he has gotten himself in the industry. (I still pull for him behind the scenes with my industry contacts.)

    Quite frankly, when you posted your first post saying, "I have been casting bullets for a long time now, and have always used Lee tumble lube molds for my pistols. I have for awhile now been thinking of getting a custom mold for 10mm bullets something like 250gr, 275gr or 300gr, and..." my alarm bells went off that you have not had much experience loading the 10mm cartridge, or you'd know that this cartridge suffers from a lot of restrictions in terms of diminishing returns when it comes to the relationship between seating depth/case capacity and velocity/energy. And to say that you'd like to go as high as 300grs cemented that idea...

    Then, when you started taking the post in a more commercial direction, I decided that I'd wait and see who else posted to give you advice (because there's plenty of other smart guys here in this forum), and just made a short post with my moderator hat on to warn you that this is not an area for commercial postings. Once that was clarified and seeing no one else commenting, I took the moderator hat off and posted what I have to suggest to someone who seems clearly less-experienced with the 10mm cartridge that they may be going too far towards an extreme.

    I really hate to talk about myself, because I think it sounds narcissistic, especially in a post on-line, but since you're questioning my qualifications, I'll tell you this: I've already told you in a previous post that I have loaded the 10mm for over 20 years and I've designed numerous cast bullet designs. (The two things about my background that seemed most pertinent to this discussion.) I've informed you above that I helped Mike with advice before he started Double Tap. I had a Type 06 FFL for four years from 1992-1996 and started, owned, and operated a cast bullet company and reloaded ammunition company. I've designed a cartridge and a couple cast bullets that are in commercial production. I have LOTS of industry contacts who have helped me, and I'm not the be-all, end-all, know-it-all about anything, including loading the 10mm cartridge, but I've had enough experience and some knowledge to say that your design is heavier than it's worth.

    Because of my experiences, I know that if you're using an industry source for your plated bullets, you're going to have to pay a considerable amount of money for a significant production run. I'm just trying to save you some financial trouble in that regard before you come up with a design that doesn't work and hence doesn't sell and sticks you with a bad taste in your mouth... If you plan on using a non-industry source, be careful, because they often don't understand what is needed, what works, and how production must be done for the firearms industry...

    The bottom line: Feel free to not listen to me, but don't be surprised when my warnings turn out to be more right than your hopefulness. Good luck.
  19. Angry Fist

    Angry Fist Dehumanizer® Lifetime Member

    Dec 30, 2009
    Hellbilly Hill
    Ouch! So much for my 660gr Goliath 10mm exploding Depleted Uranium / Diamond-Tipped Mercury-Filled warheads. Very nice heaters on your site, MakeMine! :thumbsup:
  20. jlmomaha


    Mar 8, 2009
    True it is my money and to provide something that will make the 10mm a better cartridge in a animimal attack situation, Im all for spending, and it is true I will make very little in doing this it is mostly for the love of the cartridge.
    I feel that the tests I ran and the numbers I posted should be satisfactory to subdue most doubts.
    Lets go ahead and throw out the handload data software results, and go by what I was in the real world able to find.

    Seating a bullet with a length of .830" "which would greatly exceed 260gr telling me I can go even heavier" at the required depth will not cause case expansion any more than the "mid weight" bullets.

    With a bullet that big we can easily put 6gr of powder "since the 260gr will be shorter, the powder capacity will be greater" so powder limitations will not be a factor only pressure will, the same as with any "middleweight bullet".

    perhaps it seems as though I retaliated, and maybe I was to harsh, and I am sorry. I do respect your opinions, but from the very first post I have had to defend myself and this project, and to be honest it did and does seem as though you were against even the posting of it..
    I fear that we will just have to butt heads on this one, and I can only hope you do not take it personally, I do believe you to be knowledgable, and appreciate you attempting to save me money from what you feel to be a fools errand, that is your belief and I appreciate your concern.
    But I am willing to "waste" the money for the hope that it will be an improvement, and from your prior post pointing out that it will be expensive for the plating and materials, so now everyone knows that I am not being driven by the tons of cash I will It is for the love of this cartridge and to hopefully share an improvement with my fellow 10mm owners..

    And yes I will be sending you some to load up and shoot after there done, perhaps I can make a believer out of

    I am sorry for the quick rant I am actually in a hurry, and there are probably a 100 misspelled

    Thank you all