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An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by DonGlock26, Jan 24, 2012.


  1. DonGlock26

    DonGlock26
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    An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

    "Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot."

    "Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute."

    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866


    HAJIME!!




    A .357Sig barrel for my G-23 is even more tempting........:cool:


    (apologies, if this has already has been posted. I did search first)


    _
     

    Wanna kill these ads? We can help!
    #1 DonGlock26, Jan 24, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012
  2. xcaliburelite

    xcaliburelite
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    That study is very interesting. I have a copy printed out that I show to students in the CCW courses that my father and I teach when someone says "I wouldnt carry anything less than a .45!". I'm pretty sure all it does is make them mad.
     

  3. j3x

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    Good read..thanks for the link.
     
  4. dave333

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    very good read, thanks.
     
  5. xcaliburelite

    xcaliburelite
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    Does anyone have any other sites with statistics like the Buckeye site? I enjoy reading stuff like that.
     
  6. Merkavaboy

    Merkavaboy
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    Code-7A KUZ769

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    Roh oh! Ayoob, Marshall & Sanow was mentioned in the posted article. It's only matter of time before the detractors of these 3 gentlemen arrive to piss on this thread.
     
    #6 Merkavaboy, Jan 24, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012
  7. cciman

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    As a physician, I find these 'debates' interesting if not a waste of mental energy, and just stroking the personal choices. If a bullet does not strike a vital structure, no "stopping" occurs.

    If I shoot you in the aorta, heart, brain, spinal cord, carotid artery, liver, pelvic structures, etc...., you are unlikely to survive for long. The more (bigger) holes I put into these structures, while I run, duck and hide, the sooner you will be "stopped". It does not matter what caliber bullet is used: the more/bigger holes through these structures, the faster, and more complete the 'stoppage". If the person being shot at is behind armor shielding (sandbag, armor plate, bullet proof vest, helmet, heavy clothing, leather jacket, car door, bone deflection), then you are unlikely to hit these vital structures.

    You can debate caliber all you want... but people expire from .22-.25 bullets, bee stings, and heart attacks.. .. as well as ball peen hammers to the back of the head

    The more bullets you carry in your y caliber gun, the more bullets you fire that strike on target, the more likely and the sooner the "stoppage".
     
  8. cowboy1964

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    Several threads debating this pro and con over the last few months. Interesting "study" but I doubt it will change anyone's opinion either way.
     
  9. greenlion

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    Some interesting data. I had not seen this one before.
     
  10. Tiro Fijo

    Tiro Fijo
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    This is not "new" and has been posted here at least twice in the last 6 mos.

    :deadhorse:
     
  11. AWESOMO 4000

    AWESOMO 4000
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    Mindset and Tactics beat Bonded vs Unbonded vs Gold Dot vs HST vs DPX vs .40 v .45 v .357 v 9mm v 10mm v 38 Super, etc. etc. etc.
     
  12. xcaliburelite

    xcaliburelite
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  13. Merkavaboy

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    Code-7A KUZ769

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    Oh, so as a "physician", you're telling us that no person who has ever been shot in a non-vital location has never been "stopped"?

    Tell that to LAPD Ofc. Stacy Lim who had the bottom of her heart destroyed by a .357 Mag round and was able to return fire and hit and kill her attacker with 5 out of 5 shots (correction: 4 out of 4) from her Beretta 9mm and is still alive to talk about it. But I digress...

    This shows the difference between those of us who have had proper formal training and take that training to heart, and those who haven't.

    When I carry my firearm for SD, if I'm attacked, I'm not concerning myself about whether or not my bullets ultimately prove fatal to my attacker. My only concern is whether or not those bullets that I use to shoot my attacker in a justified use of lethal force will cause an immediate cessation of his ability to further attack me. If one or two bullets happen to strike non-vital areas of my attacker's body and that attacker immediately falls to the ground and "gives up", then those bullets have done their job. If the attacker ultimately expires in the Waabulance or the ER/OR, that is secondary. My primary concern is to IMMEDIATELY STOP my attacker, not ultimately to KILL him.
     
    #13 Merkavaboy, Jan 25, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2012
  14. Dexters

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    Note: My comments pertain to most of the experiments we read on the internet not performed by scientists.

    Here is how to perform an experiment.
    http://www.experiment-resources.com/conduct-science-experiments.html

    Compare how an experiment should be performed and then compare it to the"Look at Handgun Stopping Power" .

    After you do the comparison you will see that the "Look at Handgun Stopping Power" is of little value.

    Read how the FBI did it.
    http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf


    +++++++++++++

    I my opinion you choose the right tool for the job - that tool would be different for a foot solider, a police officer and a citizen looking for a EDC.

    The criteria for a citizen looking for a EDC would be:

    1. Have it with you - what size and weight would likely carry every day
    2. Reliable - the gun works when you pull the trigger
    3. Accuracy - what gun can you shoot competently
    4. Capacity - what is your mininum number of bullets do you want in the gun (consider #1 in that)
    5. Caliber

    Note that caliber is last - that is because a larger caliber hand gun than you would not regularly carry does you no good if you do not have it with you when you need it.
     
    #14 Dexters, Jan 25, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2012
  15. xcaliburelite

    xcaliburelite
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    Well said, Sir!
     
  16. THE PUNISHER

    THE PUNISHER
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    shoot the biggest YOU can conceal and hit with...if 380 then 380...if a 50A.E. well then a 50 A.E.....first rule have a gun, second rule make sure you can shoot it and hit what your aiming at...the rest is a peeing contest.
     
  17. PAGunner

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    I'm a physician also, but I disagree with your assessment. Stopping and killing are two different things, sometimes they both occur, but let's be clear they are different.

    You don't necessarily need to hit a vital structure in order to stop an attack, depending on the size/energy of the round, the better chance you have of stopping an attack.

    It doesn't take a medical degree to figure that out, in fact during my medical education my pathology professor (also a vietnam vet and I suspect a gun enthusiast) had a whopping 2 powerpoint slides discussing gunshot wounds, one should a very basic mechanism of handgun vs. rifle wounding, and I don't remember having ANY test questions on the subject and it certainly didn't pop up on steps 1, 2 or 3, just saying...
     
  18. PAGunner

    PAGunner
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    Do you have any links to this story? I'd like to read up on the details of this story.
     
  19. tsmo1066

    tsmo1066
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    Jeff Cooper's first rule of gunfighting...HAVE A GUN.
     
  20. Merkavaboy

    Merkavaboy
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    Mas Ayoob wrote her incident up in his Ayoob Files in an American Handgunner issue many years ago. Last year another GTer who knows her personally said she's still an instructor for the LAPD academy. You may be able to find some info on her incident in Google.

    Update:

    Metal of Valor recipient 1991

    http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the_lapd/content_basic_view/27327#Stacy Lim
     
    #20 Merkavaboy, Jan 25, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2012