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Alliant Powder data.

Discussion in '10mm Reloading Forum' started by MCNETT, Aug 25, 2003.

  1. g29guy

    g29guy

    177
    0
    Dec 29, 2010
    Georgia
    Thanks jitterbug,

    I think starting at 9.0 and working up is the way to go. I will load a bunch of ammo this week. My father in law invited me to go shooting Monday as we both have the day off.. Ill try and get results asap.
     
  2. _The_Shadow

    _The_Shadow Ret. Fireman

    4,522
    22
    Jul 23, 2007
    Southeast, LoUiSiAna
    G29guy, you shouldn't have any problems with the 10.4 grains Blue Dot under the 175 grain cast bullets, that is my target load from my S&W1006 1220-1235 fps and Glock 29 about 1075-1100 fps. Been shooting that load since 1990...

    Just be aware, be sure you are not getting any leading especially in a factory Glock barrel. I cast my own 175 gr alloy 0.401" bullets and the Zambini lube works well to prevent leading for me. I have shot some 156 gr alloy at 1400 fps with ever so slight streaks.
     

  3. g29guy

    g29guy

    177
    0
    Dec 29, 2010
    Georgia
    Went to the range today. I was able to work up 9.0-9.8 grains of Blue Dot on the press. I wanted to go further but ran out of time. Ill continue on up later.

    No signs of any stress or leading out of my KKM 4.75" barrel, 23# recoil spring. No failures either.
    Recoil jumped at the 9.8 load but brass and accuracy were great.
    Definitely a loud flashy dirty powder, but great to get turned heads at the range(especially out of a 29, big bang in a small package)

    I just wish I could get more published data for hard cast ammo.

    CCI 300 primers
    New Starline brass
    180 grain Truncated Cone Flat HardCast bullets
    1.256 OAL
    9.0-9.8 Blue Dot

    Thanks For all your feedback and sugestions
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2011
  4. Jitterbug

    Jitterbug

    870
    6
    Aug 27, 2002
    I've found it's always best to START at the lowest published data or very close to it after finding at least two sources of published data by what I consider to be reputable sources, bullet manufacturer, powder manufacturer or Lyman.

    I think Lee publishes data, but I'm not familiar with it.

    Over the past weekend I was at Sportsman's Warehouse and they had those One load/One Book manuals for about $8.00 each. I'm thinking it might be a good idea to pick one up for each caliber I load, they're only about $8.00 each and can be found at Midway. And I ALWAYS get two sources, not just one.

    So I STRONGLY suggest confirmation of what you find in any manual, the data is constantly being updated and typo's do happen. Often before starting a load, I'll have three or more published sources...then get confirmation and remarks from a reloading forum.

    g29, I've had good luck with AA7 in 10mm, my plinking load is 8.8 gr. - 9.0 of AA#7 under a 180 gr. Missouri Bullet 180 gr. TCBB. This is a mild load, I was trying to find the mildest load I could, attempting to duplicate a .45acp load. It's a good outdoor load, and due to the lube a bit smokey in doors, but no flash and it cleans up easily, not to mention accurate in my gun.

    The Accurate Arms manual can be downloaded in PDF format from their website, as well as many others.

    In the future I intend on trying out some AA#9 for 180 XTP's. AA#9 seems to give more velocity at the same pressure from what I've read.

    As always what works in my gun may not work in yours so please verify and always use manufacturer START data.

    Good luck!
     
  5. g29guy

    g29guy

    177
    0
    Dec 29, 2010
    Georgia
    I need to get me a caliber specific book too. I own a speer reloading book and borrow or copy info out of my fathers books as a precaution.
    I agree on the starting levels of any caliber unless you are familiar with the load.
    The trouble I'm having is finding several good sources of data on hardcast or lead. I might find a good source for a 180 grain bullet but then have to compare with a couple of 175 grain bullet loads.

    I'm open to trying different powders. Next time I see AA#9 ill pick up a pound and see. I hand weigh all my loads so metering isn't a problem, but having several different recipes helps to keep range time fun and interesting.
     
  6. BenKeith

    BenKeith

    125
    0
    Mar 17, 2011
    I've been doing a lot of experimenting with my Glock 20SF and Blue Dot powder with 165 grain Golden Saber's.

    Most Accurate Load.
    10.4gr Blue Dot, glock factory barrel, New Starline brass, CCI 300 primers OAL, 1.250, 165 grain Golden Saber bullets.
    (first three shots at 50' were in the same hole, and I mean the SAME hole)

    Max load to date
    12.0gr Blue Dot, everything else the same
    Glock barrel, 1,285 fps
    6" Lone Wolf barrel, 1,425 fps
    Neither of these barrels are showing any extreme pressure signs. The brass is showing absolutely no increase in size mic'ing the base before and after each shot.

    Gonna shoot a few hundred of these before I try going any higher.
    Will work on 180 grain Golden Saber loads until I'm sure the 165gr Max load doesn't throw me any surprises.
     
  7. joey0870

    joey0870

    1
    0
    May 1, 2011
    Hey guys I am new to the site, and to reloading the 10mm. I have a G20sf and cant seem to hit a sweet spot! I am using 155gr. xtp,starline brass, cci 300, I've tried blue dot charges from 10.5 to 12.5gr. in 5 shot strings, also no crimp to enough to slightly deform the pill! still it wont group. it acts like it needs more powder! Any ideas?
     
  8. _The_Shadow

    _The_Shadow Ret. Fireman

    4,522
    22
    Jul 23, 2007
    Southeast, LoUiSiAna
    Joey Welcome to the forum!
    It may not be your handloads that are the problem...
    Have you tried longer bullets like the 165gr or 180 gr to see if accuracy improves?

    Also look at the "shooter wheel" to see if you are doing things you may be unaware of...http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2007/01/chart_for_ident.html

    Also aim small and close to build your proficency...aiming at a smaller dot to fine tune your sight picture will help shot placement.
     
  9. 21Carrier

    21Carrier Until I Gota 29

    3,037
    11
    Feb 4, 2011
    Hoover, AL
    Just thought I'd add some new loads that I just made that I REALLY like. Joey, this first will help you, also see my post at the top of page 3 for a very accurate max Blue Dot/155 XTP load. All fired from my stock G29.

    Awesome Blue Dot/155gr XTP load:
    Federal brass
    CCI 300
    Hornady 155gr XTP
    Blue Dot 12.0gr
    COAL 1.260"

    Awesome target load, medium recoil, low flash for BD, very well might be the most accurate load I've ever shot (or maybe I'm just getting better!).

    Unique/180gr FMJ target loads

    Fed. brass
    CCI 300
    Unique 7.0gr
    Magnus 180gr FMJ-TC
    COAL 1.260"

    VERY accurate, nice shooting, low-mid recoil round

    Also, for even softer rounds, use either 6.0 or 5.5gr of Unique, with the same recipe. These are all very accurate, nice shooting rounds. The 5.5gr load is like a mild .40S&W (this load can be a little smoky). I made these so my girlfriend could shoot without scaring the holy hell out of her, but I have a feeling that they will become regular range fodder. It seems I've gotten all the nitrous oxide out of my veins, and my quest for 10mm horsepower is subsiding. I'll still shoot the hot stuff AT LEAST 50% of the time, but I forgot how nice it was to just shoot some light, fun stuff, and focus on technique.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  10. OhioGlockMan

    OhioGlockMan

    226
    0
    Mar 1, 2010
    Akron, Ohio
    Ladies and Gentlemen, thought I finally got around to purchasing a chronograph, thought I'd share some data... All 10mm shot in my Glock 20 W 22# recoil spring & 6 inch Wolf stainless barrel....

    200 Grain Laser Cast lead hardcast with blue dot powder, Winchester WLR primer, average of 3 shots....

    9.2 gr. bluedot- 1195 FPS
    9.4 gr. bluedot- 1235 fps
    9.6 gr. bluedot- 1265 fps FWIW I had been shooting for a long time 10 grains of blue dot (mcnett said to use that as a start with the 200 hardcasts he sold on here). I didn't even bother to chrono the 10 grainier, with these velocities I'm just sticking to 9.4 grains. I kinda think 10 grains might batter the gun, even though I never saw a sign of pressure when shooting it.

    180 Grain Speer Gold Dot, 11 grain blue dot, CCI 350 primer- average 1390 FPS- my jaw dropped when I saw this. Holy mackerel, 1390 fps. Wowsers

    180 Grain Hornady HAP bullets (same exact bullet as the xtp, but no serrations in hollow tip, made for bulk cheap purchase and target work).
    10.4 grain bluedot, CCI 350 primer- average 1300 FPS. Makes excellent full power pinking load

    FYI I shot these loads in starline, Remington UMC, and double tap brass. Did not make a noticeable difference in anything pressure or velocity wise
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  11. ModGlock17

    ModGlock17

    4,910
    1,962
    Dec 18, 2010
    DisneyWorld
    I ran an experiment With Blue Dot, trying to find a comfortable operating range on my G20 and G29sf.

    Condition: 93F, about 150ft elevation above sea level

    Toy elements: G20, G29sf, CCI primer 300, Blue dot, once fired Starline brass, Berry flat nose bullet 180gr, Chrono F1. Also chrono'd BVAC and Georgia Arms 165gr.

    Experiment: 10.0gr, 10.2gr, 10.5gr, 10.8gr, BVAC, GArms each had 5 samples for each gun.

    Chrono placed about 10ft out, no choice... had to get out of the roof area.

    G20 ave result:
    10.0 => 1070fps std8.6, 458 ft-lbs
    10.2 => 1073fps std7.3, 460 ft-lbs
    10.5 => 1098fps std6.6, 482 ft-lbs
    10.8 => 1135fps std30.7, 515 ft-lbs

    BVAC 180gr => 1056fps std 6.1, 445 ft-lbs
    GArms 165gr => 1226fps std4.9, 551ft-lbs advertised 1250fps at muzzle.

    G29sf ave result:
    10.0 => 995fps std14.0, 395 ft-lbs
    10.2 => 1005fps std15.0, 404 ft-lbs
    10.5 => 1063fps std9.9, 452 ft-lbs
    10.8 => 1076fps std10.6, 463 ft-lbs

    A few conclusions
    1. Speed loss from G20 stock barrel to G29sf stock barrel was around 60fps.
    2. Powder weights for 180gr plated bullet from 10.0gr to 10.8gr are rather anemic. Extrapolate to 11.0gr, and perhaps 11.2gr should be the next experiment. That should make it good for target shooting, not stressing the gun too much.
    3. Speed gain on G20 is still increasing at 10.8gr of BlueDot.
    4. Standard deviation trend is tightening on G20 (with exception of one datapoint at 10.8gr) with higher powder weight.
    5. G29sf generally results in wider standard deviation, probably shorter barrel causing less consistency.
    6. GeorgiaArms has pretty good stuff at just over 40cents/round, for a factory round.

    Note: G29sf had just a couple hundred rounds so far, can be considered "not fully broke-in" as yet. But including it for 11.0+ gr experiment is worth doing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011
  12. Taterhead

    Taterhead Counting Beans

    3,701
    170
    Dec 13, 2008
    Boise, Idaho
    Nice report. You may want to check your energy stats for the G29. I believe they should be:

    364
    404
    452
    463

    Question: did you, by chance get these on paper? I have been trying to get the same bullet to remain stable at speeds above 1100, but I find inconsistent precision. Blue Dot @ 1025-1050 works great though.
     
  13. GTRhino24

    GTRhino24 Blazin' 10mm x2

    193
    2
    Jun 9, 2011
    Hoover, AL
    +1 on the write up! Same guns, bullet weight, primers, brass, and powder that I use so this is especially helpful. I look forward to the results north of 10gr! 10.5 is my target round. Thanks again! Oh, COAL? I set mine at 1.255 as it seems to feed a bit better than 1.260.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011
  14. ModGlock17

    ModGlock17

    4,910
    1,962
    Dec 18, 2010
    DisneyWorld

    You're right. Sorry about that. I was copy&paste to avoid retyping the units, then got in a hurry to pickup my little one.

    I correct the main report now, in case people didn't see your correction. Thanks.

    I wasn't trying hard to aim, more concerned about missing the chrono and where the brass lands so I can inspect them. But I did get them within a 4" circle at 10 yrds. Is that what you mean?

    I did notice pretty good POI-POA for the 10.5gr group. But trying to keep data straight and limited by time, I did not pay enough attention to that.

    Now the next group 11.2 should be the only group, so I can be more of a shooter and we will see how that goes. If accuracy falls apart, then I already decided to move back to 10.5 as my target weight.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011
  15. ModGlock17

    ModGlock17

    4,910
    1,962
    Dec 18, 2010
    DisneyWorld
    I do have a caliper somewhere, but not at hand. I basically eyeballed and kept the setup same or under BVAC/GArm's COAL. And made sure the test round(s) would load in dry firing.
     
  16. ModGlock17

    ModGlock17

    4,910
    1,962
    Dec 18, 2010
    DisneyWorld
    Upon further reflection, I think pushing above what was done with 11gr+ group is futile.

    It’s about the sound barrier and the ability to break it with sufficient margin.

    The 10.8gr sample had large std with a data point that seemed like an aberration, but it tells a story about breaking the sound barrier caused instability, thus inaccuracy. At 68F, the SBarrier is around 1124fps at sea level. The 95F day pushes it to around 1145fps (varies by the square root of temperature in degree Kelvin).

    Now if you’d break the barrier with sufficient margin, you’d maintain accuracy. The GArms 165gr sample at 1250fps was always accurate for me.

    But at 11gr of Blue Dot, the space within 10mm is full without packing. This means Blue Dot is simply not the powder to drive a 180gr bullet sufficiently pass the sound barrier to maintain accuracy, using a 10mm case.

    So if you picked Blue Dot and 180gr bullet, you inherently picked subsonic reloads, which should be quite accurate for target shooting. I agree that around 10.5gr is a good load for 180gr bullet subsonic. Go slightly above it, and you’re effectively asking for inaccurate rounds with large speed standard deviation.

    If you want transonic, you’d have to pick lighter bullet, or a powder that is stronger per weight unit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011
  17. _The_Shadow

    _The_Shadow Ret. Fireman

    4,522
    22
    Jul 23, 2007
    Southeast, LoUiSiAna
    I don't think the sound barrier has anything to do with accuracy that is achievable with Blue Dot, but some bullets are affected by speed and rotation, friction and drag.

    Blue Dot can be used in a slightly compressed load which can actually improve the burn characteristics...

    The S&W1006 running 200XTP's at 1200 fps are very accurate using Blue Dot.
    The accuracy of my 44 magnums bothe pistol and rifle at speeds well over the sound barrier are deadly accurate with Blue Dot.
     
  18. Taterhead

    Taterhead Counting Beans

    3,701
    170
    Dec 13, 2008
    Boise, Idaho
    I agree with you completely. I do not think that the speed of sound is at issue with the plated bullets. I believe that the bullet constuction is the culprit. They simply have a speed limit, as acknowledged by the manufacturer, but I think it is a good deal south of what the manufacturer claims.

    Transonic velocites can affect the stability of bullets of certain shapes (typically rifle bullets), but I was recently hammering away at a steel target @ 7/8 mile with a 25-06 Speer BT. It was not impacted by transonic flight at all. I have not found the shorter pistol bullets to be affected by the sound barrier either. Blue Dot under a 180 XTP is very accurate with velocities ranging from 1000 fps to 1230 fps, and all throughout the transonic range. As are any other projectiles pushed by Blue Dot like 165 grain Sierras.

    In my experience, you could push the Berry's plated clear above supersonic speeds and groups would continue to get worse not better.
     
  19. _The_Shadow

    _The_Shadow Ret. Fireman

    4,522
    22
    Jul 23, 2007
    Southeast, LoUiSiAna
    Plated bullets being a blend of a lead bullet and a jacketed bullet performance at reduced jacketed bullet cost...this is the key! The manufacture is electroplating/copper depositing to a lead core, the thinner the more the manufacture makes, the thicker the better for the shooter. Too thin it will shear, errode thru friction as it travels the bore which gets worst with increased speeds.

    Speer's Gold Dots are said to be plated but seem to be thicker. Maybe the plating process is different or better, but they seem to work much better!
     
  20. 15GLOCKGUY

    15GLOCKGUY

    251
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    Aug 1, 2011
    Blue Dot is all I use in 10MM. Both are GLOCKS. One G-20 and one G-29. I use a 8.6 grain medium load with either 180 TMJ or 180 JHP. Best accuracy is out of the G-20 with a Hornady XTP 180 grain.