A new look on the draw stroke

Discussion in 'Tactics and Training' started by Infidel4life11, May 4, 2013.


  1. I've using the 4 step draw stroke for many of years. Which I've very slightly modified to my type of shooting at the time. I saw this video with Ron Avery about his version of the draw to I thought I'd try it for myself. By the end of day I can draw, fire and hit a 4" circle in around 1sec (.94,.92,1.08,1.05). Tomorrow I will try the trigger stripe target.

    Video on the draw
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMSlCyc-SQQ"]Ron Avery Talks the Science of the Draw Stroke - YouTube[/ame]

    Video on trigger press and trigger strip target.
    Part 1
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azb3q8wOrV4"]TRIGGERSTRIPE DRILL PART 1 - YouTube[/ame]
    Part 2
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h9rKDEXPvM"]TRIGGERSTRIPE DRILL PART 2 - YouTube[/ame]

    I would like to have an adult discussion about this and I encourage you to train on it. I am not saying this is THE way or BEST way to do it. I also don't want to hear negative personal opinions about the people involved. Check it out, give it shot, and other than above what do you think.
     

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  2. uz2bUSMC

    uz2bUSMC 10mm defender

    I'm always down to modify what I do to get faster. I'll give these vids a watch and their due consideration.

    ...On to the vids...
     

  3. Thank you kind Sir, I thought the same.
     
  4. uz2bUSMC

    uz2bUSMC 10mm defender

    Watched the vids. I'm going to have to give some of the smaller things some thought, although I agree with most of it. I haven't researched Avery; that will be on my list before commenting, as well.
     
  5. uz2bUSMC

    uz2bUSMC 10mm defender

    Well, I don't know if I like it. I agree with economy of motion. I use the same, although my draw stroke is different. I can't decide if I like Avery's principle since it it ultimately focused on the end point of the motion...how to get the pistol from point A to point B the fastest/efficient way (with solid control at point B). This leaves some uncovered areas in between. Both, Haley and Avery, have much more extensive resumes than I so I have to consider what they say but in the end I feel I have to continue doing what I do based on my needs. I also feel that his draw has more of a gun gamer appearance than Haley's. (just my opinion, everyone stay calm:supergrin::wavey:)

    I wouldn't mind discussing further but it would be via pm if you care to do so.
     
  6. I get what he is saying and it is a good method for the type of shooting he is trying to teach. I feel combat shooting, which is what he is teaching, has some key differences from self-defense shooting. As a concealed carrier, I am more interested in self-defense shooting. I like the 2 part draw more for SD because from the high ready position all the way to my shooting stance I can be firing the gun with modest accuracy at SD ranges. Like almost everyone else on here, this is my opinion and their resume is much more extensive then my own.
     
  7. USMC I dont believe this should replace what we do currently. Just as an other tool in the box that has a time and purpose. I don't think there is anything wrong with the 4step method and I will continue to use and teach it. I practice alot last night and took a friend to the range today who has been my training buddy for a long time. I pitched it to him and then taught it to him after I demo'd it he practiced and we gave it a run. After about 45mins to a hour he was on par with a 1sec draw and shot with exceptable combat accuracy (hitting a 5x8card placed on the chest of the target) @ 5&7 meters. It works pretty good but isn't the answer for everything. Oh and we shaved about .5sec off our 1-5 drill. So in all I'm happy with it and its something I can teach to shooters with more trigger time than normal.
     
    #7 Infidel4life11, May 5, 2013
    Last edited: May 5, 2013
  8. Thank you both for the interest
     
  9. uz2bUSMC

    uz2bUSMC 10mm defender

    I felt like I should come back to this; figured I'd throw some questions your way.

    I realize this method may be faster, as it should, since it will cut out some pieces of the the draw but do you feel you are loosing anything by changing habits? My main concern is loosing engagement techniques between holster and final firing position. Do you think it is more efficient to put more focus on the end result of the draw rather than cover your bases on the way (close and ready firing positions)?
     
  10. For me personally, I've been to four pistol classes at Gunsite, 1 course at Blackwater, 2 at Valhalla, Army Special Reaction team training, and Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor course. Just like every technique i have learned I believe the technique posted has a time and place.

    Because you do lose the ability to engage right out of the holster at close and ready. You lose the ability to draw from a seated position like in your car. This draw stroke is very high profile and what I mean by that is: in .5secs or so you pistol is out, pointed and you are in that alarming (somebody is about to die) position. Versus you drawing and going to step 2 or 3 keeping the weapon close then maybe moving to or flanking your threat in a more low profile manner.

    I've drawn my sidearm a few times at attacking dogs and at people using our 4step method and I believe things didn't get out of hand with bystanders because of my weapons presentation. That deliberate motion from my holster to my chest looks like I know exactly what I'm doing and I'm doing it in a safe manner.

    Now the draw posted is more serious threat coming at you from within your public space(30ft) over the weekend we used the attack target which starts 30ft away and will hit you in 1.5 sec using the draw posted we had great success. We also did good on rapid incapacitation shots (25m shot to the head in under 2secs) but our long distance 50-100m shots suffered.

    In all I think it is a good skill to have in the tool box but should not replace the 4step method.
     
  11. Isn't that called bowling?
     
  12. Nope, bowling refers to the shooter drawing and swinging the weapon up in a circular motion often with just the strong hand. With bowling there is a lot of wasted motion. Here they go point A(just out of the holster) straight the point B (where you would break the shot with sights on target)
     
  13. Here is a look at it drawing from the appendix position. Not the same as posted above but he goes from holster, hands meet in the middle, straight to where he breaks his shot. I usually do this in about 1.50-1.70 inside of 15m. Once I hit 15m I slow down due to focusing more on clean hits.

    http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=/#/watch?v=pl7hI6aEvs4
     
  14. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936
    Millennium Member

    FINALLY! someone has the guts to hint that all this over articulation that you see in the new generation of shooters... is not better than simply drawing and pointing the dern weapon like we have done for over 50 years. At least Ron has the creds to actually cause some to pause and consider what he is saying.

    I actually heard a guy at the range tell his mid 20's son to "stop trying to look cool and put the front post on your target quickly". The kid was doing the typical robotic moves to the high chest and drive forward just to shoot a target 4 yards away.
     
    #17 FireForged, May 14, 2013
    Last edited: May 14, 2013
  15. I've been training this since I started this thread. It's definitely fast and easy to be accurate if practiced. Again it's not for every situation but a good skill to have.
     
  16. uz2bUSMC

    uz2bUSMC 10mm defender

    What's your personal best time with this method now that you have been runnin' it for a bit?
     

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