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A Biblical only discussion of the Trinity

Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by Vic Hays, Jul 13, 2011.


  1. Vic Hays

    Vic Hays
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    [Quote:]
    Originally Posted by Ogreon
    If I have this right...we have two persons instead of three. (I'll guess that the Holy Spirit is a force or attribute of God). And the exact details of how the two persons interact or join together, you aren't sure (except the Father came first and both Father and Son have authority over everything else).

    Assuming I have this right, then I have a bit more information than I had before.

    I was gonna have rgregoryb beat you up...but...I just can't bring myself to pony up cash to a Mr. Smiley Face button.
     

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  2. achysklic

    achysklic
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    Trinity and it's concept is taken from paganism, it is never taught in the bible. The God family consist of God the Father, God the son. The Holy spirit is never mentioned as a person. It is however part of the Ftaher that is given to mankind as a gift to help them along their journey.

    In john 17 Jesus explain how He and the Father are one. They are one in thought and action not personage. Jesus ask that all christians also be one with the Father and Him in this same way.

    The Holy Spirit again is not mentioned as being part of the oneness of the God family. It is merely a essence of the Father.
     

  3. eracer

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    Why then was the Greek Orthodox wedding I attended recently so heavily ritualized to the number three?

    The priest explained it as adherence to the belief in the Trinity. Are you saying that the Trinity is not part of the scriptures that are so revered in Catholicism? They say "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost" during blessings. Surely this is biblical in nature.
     
    #3 eracer, Jul 14, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2011
  4. Vic Hays

    Vic Hays
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    Remember this is Scripture only. You did a lot of explaining without Biblical support. This is how things get skewed. God does not always fit into our logical construction.

    1. True, there is not the word "Trinity" used in the Bible.

    2. The Holy Spirit is mentioned as a person many times in the Bible.

    Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
    8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    3. The members of the Godhead are also mentioned working in concert as individuals.

    Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
    3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
     
  5. Vic Hays

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    Being heavily ritualized is no guarantee that something is Biblical. There was a pagan religion of Sun worship that arose to state religion in the Roman Empire just before Jesus was born. During the time directly after the resurrection a number of non-Biblical rituals and beliefs were brought into Christianity. This is called syncretism. Sometimes it may be harmless and sometimes not. This is why there are so many different Churches. We now have the Bible in our own languages. It is time to study to find the Truth as it is in Jesus. The only safe standard is the Bible.

    Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
     
    #5 Vic Hays, Jul 14, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2011
  6. NMG26

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    The Holy Spirit is Just a nickname for God.
     
  7. AGAF

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    In a very crude, earthly (human) like description, I like to think of the trinity kind of like water. You have two hydrogen molecules bonded to one oxygen molecule and all three make up water. You can't have water without all three. And yet water is made up of three individual parts. God & Jesus are like the two hydrogen molecules in that they are of the same nature and the holy spirit is like the oxygen. Different from the hydrogen, but absolutely needed to form water.

    Ok, sorry.....that wasn't very biblical, but an analogy that kind of makes sense to me.

    I do believe that the Holy Spirit is a kind of "power" given to Christ's believers as a source of strength to help them live out the kind of Christ centered life that He has called us to. We cannot do this on our own strength. I believe the spirit also helps move us into spritual maturity.
     
  8. Brasso

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    God, YHWH, is unseen. Invisible. He is everywhere and everything. He is Spirit. The Holy Spirit is Him. He gives you that. Messiah is also of that same Spirit. He came forth from the Father and eventually took on flesh. Messiah is the visible image of YHWH. That part of Him that interacts with His creation. YHWH is the Father and Godhead. Messiah is the Son and redeemer. Messiah is our head. The FAther is Messiah's head.

    There is only One God. Even Messiah acknowledges that YHWH is His God. But Messiah is alive, not dead, seated as our high priest and mediator. So we pray to Him also, acknowledging His postion as given by the Father, to the glory of the Father. He's been given all authority and inherited all things, even the name YHWH.
     
    #8 Brasso, Jul 14, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2011
  9. achysklic

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    Biblical Proof​
    1) The word “trinity” is not in the Bible.
    2) The Holy Spirit was “poured out” on Pentecost (Acts 2:18)—and was “poured out” upon
    Gentiles (Acts 10:45). A person is not “poured out.”
    3) Acts 2:2: “And suddenly ​
    there came from heaven a sound like the rushing of a powerful
    wind, and filled the whole house... ” A person doesn’t sound like a mighty wind, and cannot fill a house.
    4) The Holy Spirit appeared as cloven tongues—something a person cannot do (Acts 2:3).
    5) Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:18, 20). If the Holy Spirit were a person,
    that would make the Holy Spirit Christ’s Father!
    6) The Holy Spirit is not a person; it is the
    power God uses to accomplish His work.
    7) Sometimes Scripture
    personifies a thing or quality as if it were a person: “Wisdom cries outside;
    she utters her voice in the streets.” (See Prov. 1:20-33.) Another example refers to
    “understanding”: “Lift up your voice for understanding; if you seek her as silver, and search
    for her as
    for hidden treasures…” (See Prov. 2:3-4.) The use of “she” and “her” does not make wisdom or understanding
    a person. Nor can the use of “he” in the
    KJV, etc. make the Holy Spirit a person.
    8) Christ said, “I and My Father are one” (John 10:30; 17:21-22). He never mentioned the Holy
    Spirit as being one with Him and His Father.
    9) “The Son of man … came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before
    Him” (Dan. 7:13). Daniel, a loyal servant of God, spoke of only
    two members of the Godhead.
    10) “The L
    ORD said to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand…’ ” (Psalm 110:1). David, a man after
    God’s own heart (Acts 13:22), spoke of only
    two members of the Godhead.
    11) In most of his letters Paul gave salutations from God the Father and Christ—but never included
    the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit were a person and a member of a triune Godhead, Paul would
    have sent greetings from the Holy Spirit as well.
    12) In three of Paul’s letters, God the Father and Christ are referred to as persons—but the Holy
    Spirit is never referred to as such (Col. 1:3; I Thess. 1:1; Hebrews 1:1-2).
    13) Matthew 28:19 reads: “Go … baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son,
    and of the Holy Spirit.” The use of “Holy Spirit” here in no way makes it a person.
    14) In John’s vision of the throne of God (Rev. 4-5), he saw only the Father and the Son. He did
    not see a third person designated as “God, the Holy Spirit.”
    15) Satan’s religions teach the doctrine of the
    trinity; God teaches the Family.
    16) God is an open
    Family—not a closed, triangular trinity. Converted, begotten believers can

    be
    born into the Family of God at the first resurrection.
     
  10. achysklic

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    Historical Proof​
    1) The trinity teaching originated in the latter half of the second century—a hundred years ​
    after

    the New Testament had been written and canonized.
    2) The trinity doctrine was officially adopted at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD.
    3) A 4th-century spurious addition was made to I John 5:7: “…in heaven, the Father, the Word,
    and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one….” ​
    Peake’s Commentary says, “No respectable Greek
    [manuscript] contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th century Latin text, it entered the
    Vulgate and finally
    the NT of Erasmus [and eventually the
    KJV]” (p. 1038). Numerous Bible commentaries agree; most
    modern translations omit the passage.
    I John 5:6-8 should read: “This is He Who came by water and blood—Jesus the Christ; not by
    water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness because the Spirit is the truth.
    For there are three that bear witness on the earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three

    witness unto the one truth.”
     
  11. ArtificialGrape

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    Given how core a belief in the trinity is to Christians, it seems that your argument points to how human, corrupted and errant the Bible is.
     
  12. eracer

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    There are many things I've learned about the Bible recently that puzzle me:

    Why is the concept of hell as a place of punishment not part of the original scriptures, if it is so fundamental to the idea of salvation?

    How is it that the Synoptic Gospels are not the work of those for whom they are named?

    How do people who hold the Bible to be the inviolate word of God reconcile the fact that it was written by men and altered much over its history?
     
  13. FifthFreedom

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    Well answer to question 1:
    Because when torturing people and burning them at the stake didn't get people to kiss the cross, the threat of hellfire was a good alternative.

    2: Because we have no idea who wrote them.

    3: The Torah itself has not been altered.
     
  14. AGAF

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    Why would a non-Christian, non-believer (in God or Christ) feel the need or desire to post in a thread that is obviously tilted toward a believer and one seeking clarification regarding Christian principals or beliefs.

    Look, some of you make it quite clear that you do NOT in any form or fasion hold the same belief or ideals of people of faith. Particularly, people who profess Christianity and who try to follow the teachings of the Holy Bible. Fine. Great. That is certainly your view, your prerogative, your decision.

    Why not allow people of like-mind the opportunty to discuss and share their thoughts, questions, and beliefs without hijacking their thread every time? Why not have the common decency to stay out of a discussion that was not directed to you.

    It is one thing if a Christian wants to debate a particular subject or idea with an atheist or agnostic and starts a thread for that sole purpose.

    To the same degree, you could easily start your own thread on any subject you like and pick apart every last word of someone who does not share your thoughts, beliefs, and opinions.

    But it just seems rude, immature, arrogant, and flat out classless to constantly interject your unprovoked (and quite frankly - unsolicited) rants thread, after thread, after thread when like-minded Christians want to discuss things of the bible.

    Am I just asking for too much here......?
     
  15. FifthFreedom

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    Whom are you addressing?
     
  16. eracer

    eracer
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    AGAF -

    Sorry, but the original post said nothing about 'believers only.'

    I agree that any discussion should be civil and respectful of other's beliefs. And I think that most folks in this forum act civilly.

    Should the religious forum be off-limits to those of us who question the validity of current religious interpretations of such things as the nature of God, creation, evolution, etc.?
     
    #16 eracer, Jul 14, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2011
  17. AGAF

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    Re-read the first sentence.......
     
  18. AGAF

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    Absolutely not. Read my post again.

    If I start a thread that is clearly intended for discussion with other believers, and someone wants to hijack my thread and debate every single thing that is written by other believers, then I find that person to be terribly rude and less than civil.

    I haven't been in this particular forum very long, but have already seen numberous examples of this very thing.
     
  19. FifthFreedom

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    Well your first sentence could mean a lot of things. You say "non-Xtian" then you say "Non-believer" in either "G-d or chrst"

    Well What is a "Believer" to you? I am a Believer in G-d. I am NOT a believer in the Nazarene. So Do you feel i have a right to be here because i fit half your criteria?
    As ercaer said.. this thread didn't specify any group and it is in fact a public forum so if someone wants to get xtian only replies, they should post in a xtian only forum. no?
     
  20. SPIN2010

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