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A believer ask a believer........

Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by Snapper2, Apr 17, 2012.

  1. Snapper2

    Snapper2

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    According to the Bible,where does it say you must try to prove that God exists to another?I realize you are to prove all things(to yourself) according to the faith that is given. It seems that we accept by faith that which is supernatural then turn around and try to prove it by something that is natural. Isn't this contrary to faith? Or are we to prove everything to everyone? I guess what I'm getting at is if you prove by the natural(to someone) that there is the supernatural, is that still faith in action?
     
  2. IndianaMatt

    IndianaMatt

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    I think in the 2000+ years of Christianity, no one has "proven" anything "supernatural" via any empricial, reproducible scientific means. All that leaves for you is running on faith.
     


  3. Snapper2

    Snapper2

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    Ok so where would hope(if it does) figure into the equation?Are we only robots fed by facts that can only be seen in what we see (scientific tests)?No hope in a resurrection,etc. For instance if someone wanted to run a scientific test according to what the Bible says about healing, how many repetitions would it take to prove it true or false? No hope,no faith,just mechanical like repetitions. Nothing proven therefore nothing is hoped for. The proof that has served so well now becomes the master instead of a servant.Faith is the answer for what is hoped for.
     
  4. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

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    Acts 16-32, "<sup>16</sup> While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. <sup id="en-NIV-27541" class="versenum">17</sup> So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. <sup id="en-NIV-27542" class="versenum">18</sup> A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. <sup id="en-NIV-27543" class="versenum">19</sup> Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? <sup id="en-NIV-27544" class="versenum">20</sup> You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” <sup id="en-NIV-27545" class="versenum">21</sup> (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)

    <sup id="en-NIV-27546" class="versenum">22</sup> Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. <sup id="en-NIV-27547" class="versenum">23</sup> For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
    <sup id="en-NIV-27548" class="versenum">24</sup> “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. <sup id="en-NIV-27549" class="versenum">25</sup> And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. <sup id="en-NIV-27550" class="versenum">26</sup> From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. <sup id="en-NIV-27551" class="versenum">27</sup> God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. <sup id="en-NIV-27552" class="versenum">28</sup> ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’<sup class="footnote" value='[b]'>[b]</sup> As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’<sup class="footnote" value='[c]'>[c]</sup>
    <sup id="en-NIV-27553" class="versenum">29</sup> “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. <sup id="en-NIV-27554" class="versenum">30</sup> In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. <sup id="en-NIV-27555" class="versenum">31</sup> For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.” <sup id="en-NIV-27556" class="versenum">32</sup> When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” <sup id="en-NIV-27557" class="versenum">33</sup> At that, Paul left the Council. <sup id="en-NIV-27558" class="versenum">34</sup> Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others."

    There is Paul out there attempting to convince other people by discussing Jesus with people who don't believe in Jesus. We are told that some of the sneered at him.

    So, there is Paul among the non-believing attempting to pursuade people to the truth.

    As you can see he was treated by mocking or anger for his efforts by some.

    2 Corinthians 11:23-28, "<sup>23</sup> Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. <sup id="en-NIV-29014" class="versenum">24</sup> Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. <sup id="en-NIV-29015" class="versenum">25</sup> Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, <sup id="en-NIV-29016" class="versenum">26</sup> I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. <sup id="en-NIV-29017" class="versenum">27</sup> I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. <sup id="en-NIV-29018" class="versenum">28</sup> Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches."

    So, Paul, struggled as a disciple of Jesus. He went forward and tried to convince those that did not believe to believe in Jesus.

    So, yes, there is an example of this, and there is also a precedent for this sort of thing.

    So, as we sojurn on trying to reach the lost, consider yourself in good company.

    The worst they can do is mock you. That is nothing compared to the last example.
     
  5. Gunhaver

    Gunhaver the wrong hands

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    Believe what you want to believe. I don't care if you think your're Napoleon. The requirement for proof comes with the assumption that others should live the way your beliefs dictate or the assumption that your beliefs supersede scientific evidence.
     
  6. Snapper2

    Snapper2

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    I think it has more to do about being right than showing proof. You've just exalted scientific evidence over the beliefs of others so it goes both ways. Youre right though,no one should be forced into anything.Proof or no proof.
     
  7. Gunhaver

    Gunhaver the wrong hands

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    Of course some should be forced with proof. If I present proof that toxic runoff from an industrial plant is poisoning my livestock then that plant can and should be forced to do something about it. One can think of numerous examples. When it comes to the religion vs. science debate the belief that they're on equal footing is ridiculous. That's why I exalt scientific evidence over religious belief. It's like comparing textbooks with fiction. One serves a much greater purpose and it's absurd to claim that both have equal value to society. One makes life actually better for people and one makes people feel better. When one prefers to sit around and read fiction and claims it's so much better than textbooks while enjoying all the modern benefits provided by the people who read the text books we have an absurd situation.

    Considering that 'science' can be defined as every discovery made by observation in human history, how much has religion done to improve quality of life compared to science? How much does science really "go after" religion as opposed to vice versa?
     
  8. The Bible discourages you from trying to prove God exists because the authors knew you couldn't.
     
  9. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

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    Context is everything.

    Exodus 17:1-7, " The whole Israelite community set out from the Desert of Sin, traveling from place to place as the LORD commanded. They camped at Rephidim, but there was no water for the people to drink. <sup id="en-NIV-1986" class="versenum">2</sup> So they quarreled with Moses and said, “Give us water to drink.”

    Moses replied, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you put the LORD to the test?”
    <sup id="en-NIV-1987" class="versenum">3</sup> But the people were thirsty for water there, and they grumbled against Moses. They said, “Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to make us and our children and livestock die of thirst?”
    <sup id="en-NIV-1988" class="versenum">4</sup> Then Moses cried out to the LORD, “What am I to do with these people? They are almost ready to stone me.” <sup id="en-NIV-1989" class="versenum">5</sup> The LORD answered Moses, “Go out in front of the people. Take with you some of the elders of Israel and take in your hand the staff with which you struck the Nile, and go. <sup id="en-NIV-1990" class="versenum">6</sup> I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink.” So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel. <sup id="en-NIV-1991" class="versenum">7</sup> And he called the place Massah<sup class="footnote" value='[a]'>[a]</sup> and Meribah<sup class="footnote" value='[b]'>[b]</sup> because the Israelites quarreled and because they tested the LORD saying, “Is the LORD among us or not?”

    Deuteronomy 6:16-18, "<sup>16</sup> Do not put the LORD your God to the test as you did at Massah. <sup id="en-NIV-5104" class="versenum">17</sup> Be sure to keep the commands of the LORD your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. <sup id="en-NIV-5105" class="versenum">18</sup> Do what is right and good in the LORD’s sight, so that it may go well with you and you may go in and take over the good land the LORD promised on oath to your ancestors,"

    So, when God had clearly delivered them from Egypt, when he had them cross the sea on dry ground, and drowned the Egyptian chariots, and went before them as a pillar of cloud durrng the day, and pillar of fire at night they had the audacity to say, "Is the Lord among us or not?"

    They tested God's patience by grumbling against Him, and by ignoring what He had done for them, and not trusting in Him.

    So, you are right to say, do not test God's patience. He is still long suffering and patient, but He is pointing out the sin of grumbling against God in the face of all He has given you.

    Something to think about.
     
  10. Snapper2

    Snapper2

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    The OP was not to degrade science or compare it in a bad way to anything. It was a question to ask ...if you believe in the supernatural why try to use the natural to prove it ? Science is a tool. Religion is also a tool. Each can be used or misused.Why even pit one against the other. Thats about all it adds up to. Arguing.IMO Jesus used the natural to compare it to the things of God but not to prove it.
     
  11. You're right. This is what you can't test.
     
  12. IhRedrider

    IhRedrider Not a walker

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    "A believer asks a believer a question". A sure way to attract the atheists. It's almost like they are believers deep down, they just don't want to follow and obey.

    Were's norske, geko and AG?
     
  13. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

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    Especially, after He revealed Himself very obviously and specifically to them. That is point. To ignore everything that God had done for them, and then say, "Where is God?"

    Do you have a roof over your head? Do you have food on your table? Do you have money in your bank account? Do you have clothes to wear? Were you given life and a good mind?

    Praise God, they are good gifts from Him.

    Not everyone in this world can say as much as that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
  14. ponders

    ponders

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    Were's norske, geko and AG?[/QUOTE]



    beat me to it:whistling::wavey:
     
  15. God did not reveal himself to them. He allegedly revealed himself to Moses. How do you know Moses wasn't hallucinating?
     
  16. Well, many of us know the Bible better than many of the believers.
     
  17. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

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    It's been a long time since you have read Exodus I suspect.

    Exodus 20:20-22, "<sup>20</sup> After leaving Sukkoth they camped at Etham on the edge of the desert. <sup id="en-NIV-1889" class="versenum">21</sup> By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. <sup id="en-NIV-1890" class="versenum">22</sup> Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people."

    Kind of hard to miss a thing like that.
     
  18. Norske

    Norske Millennium Member

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    Well, since it was couched as "believer asks a believer", and I am not a believer, I did not think it was addressed to me.

    So I did not see fit to provide any input.
     
  19. I'm capable of sitting out until somebody either says something so ridiculous that it demands a response, or until I'm invited in -- like in The Lost Boys :cool:

    -ArtificialGrape
     
  20. Kind of hard to believe.