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9mm, help me understand.

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Memnok, Apr 4, 2011.


  1. Memnok

    Memnok
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    I have been reloading 40 S&W for my Glock 22 for a while. Recently picked up a Wolf 40 to 9 conversion barrel so I could start using the 9mm brass I had collected. I picked up some 124 grain Berry's plated RN to stuff into the cases. I am using Winchester Super Field (WSF) for powder.

    I started out with the mid range lead data, but they would not cycle the gun. I've been slowly adding powder, looking for the minimum charge that would cycle the gun. Today I want back out with:


    • 4.8 grains WSF seated to OAL of 1.141". Would not cycle the gun.
    • 5.0 grains WSF seated to OAL of 1.141". This would cycle the gun about 85% of the time.
    • 5.2 grains WSF seated to OAL of 1.141". This cycled the gun every time.
    The problem I see with this is that 5.2 is right at the upper limit of published data for FMJ. I recovered one of the bullets from the 5.2 grain loads, and there is no sign of separation or deformation, so I am not worried there. I also do not see any signs of pressure on the case.

    The only thing I am a little worried about is the primers. Several of them look as though they may have been pierced.

    So where do I go from here? I cant back the powder down because it won't cycle the gun. I also can't stay at 5.2 grains because of the primers. Should I look at trying another powder, or monkey with the seating depth?

    Photos of the 5.2 grain bullet and cases:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

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    #1 Memnok, Apr 4, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  2. PCJim

    PCJim
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    Yeah, it definitely looks like you are piercing the primers.

    The problem is most likely due to your attempting to shoot your 9's in a firearm whose recoil spring is designed for the more powerful 40S&W round. Your 9's will have to be really tailored to over power that spring for reliable function, without exceeding pressure signs.

    Fred is very experienced with the WSF powder. He'll chime in shortly.
     

  3. justinsaneok

    justinsaneok
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    Put a 15# spring in the gun and leave it in there when you shoot .40. Are you using Federal primers?
     
  4. Boxerglocker

    Boxerglocker
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    No necessarily the case... the G22/17 share the same recoil spring.

    The main issue is your using a new LWD barrel, those things are tight ans need several hundred rounds of good full power ammo to break in. I have owned several and it has pretty much alway been the case. Stick at the upper range get a harder primer, CCI or even Wolf, load a few hundred and blast away.... make sure you lube the barrel well for break in. Check ever 100 for rubbing between the barrel and slide, take a swiss file and/or 400 grit sandpaper to it if needed. After a few hundred, you'll be able to tone down the load, but at that point I suggest you get a 13-15 lbs ISMI recoil spring to run those 9mm loads in you conversion.
     
  5. Memnok

    Memnok
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    That was my first thought after the mid-range led data and starting FMJ data wouldn't cycle the gun.


    Ya, that's what I found out after some research. Seems odd. :dunno:

    I probably have about 100 rounds through it now, so I will go grab some factory stuff and keep running it through.

    The primers I am using at the moment are PMC Small Pistol primers. I don't know how they rate in cup hardness, but they always seem to go bang.

    [​IMG]

    I also have quite a stash of the Tula primers, but I haven't gotten into them yet. I wonder if the Tula are any harder. I believe they are the same as Wolf.
     
  6. 9 and 10 mm Fan

    9 and 10 mm Fan
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    The other trick that is available to you is to go to a slower buring powder until the barrle is fully broken in. This will cause higher pressures when the bullet leaves the barrrel, more energy to work the action. I often load 9 mm with Accurate number 7, but have done some loads with AA-9, but I don't think any #9 data is published.

    Good Luck
     
  7. GioaJack

    GioaJack
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    Conifer Jack

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    You may want to rethink your hypothesis.


    Jack
     
  8. fredj338

    fredj338
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    Jack, you are being to politically correct, must be the meds, so I'll play bad guy. No, 9&10, slower powders do not create higher pressures. FWIW, I have never known a handgun bbl to need "breaking in". What is likely is the heavier 40 slide is resisiting cycling w/ the 9mm load. I can assure you that most 9s will run quite happily @ 5gr of WSF under a 124gr lead or plated. Make sure the bullet isn't wedging into the lands, LW bbls are notorious for short throats. This would raise your peak pressures.
     
    #8 fredj338, Apr 4, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  9. ipscshooter

    ipscshooter
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    FWIW...

    I load Berry's 124 with 5.7gr. AA#5 @ 1.10-1.105 OAL. They cycle my 34 fine, but it has a stock barrel.

    Boxerglocker brings up the barrel. Maybe you should see if you can get it checked. I think I would. Those primers look nasty.

    Good Luck
     
  10. WiskyT

    WiskyT
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    The upper limit for data shouldn't be piercing primers like that. You have a high pressure condition from more than just using the max load. I've shot lots of max loads with various powders in various high pressure handgun rounds and never seen primers like that. I've even taken certain liberties with some data and never seen primers that bad.
     
  11. 9 and 10 mm Fan

    9 and 10 mm Fan
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    You are correct that slower powders have a lower peak pressure. However, part of what cycles a semi-auto like the 9 mm is the pressure at bullet exit. That is why some slower powders develop more felt recoil whiel at lower velocities and why you use very fast powders to get low felt recoil. Not saying it will fix his gun issue, but playing around with pierced primers is not going to turn out good.
     
  12. WiskyT

    WiskyT
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    OP:
    You should clean out your firing pin channel since it is pretty likely brass filings and other crap have blown in there. I get brass dust in mine after many thousands of rounds without pierced primers. Even just a few of the ones that look like yours will blow stuff back in there.
     
  13. GioaJack

    GioaJack
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    Recoil is a two-part process incorporating both internal and external pressures. Internally pressure builds from the moment of ignition and excellerates through the pressure curve of a given powder and charge... this results in barrel climb from internal recoil.

    The moment the projectile leaves the barrel internal pressure drops, the expanding gasses leaving the barrel causes muzzle flip... the second element of noticed recoil.

    The degree of total recoil is determined by several factors, i.e. velocity, pressures developed, weight of projectile, weight of gun, etc.


    Jack
     
  14. Memnok

    Memnok
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    Will do. Sounds like a good idea.

    My overall length now is 1.141 inches. Do you think shortening it will help? I worry about having a compressed load because WSF takes up a lot of room in the case. How short do you think I can safely go?
     
  15. shotgunred

    shotgunred
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    Glock uses the same springs but adjusts the weight of the slide to compensate.
    I have run a lot of 4.7 gr wsf behind a 124 gr ranier at 1.125 through my 40 to 9mm barrel in my G23. I went with a 15 pound spring so both 9mm and 40 would be happy. 5.4 gr felt very snappy to me.

    also these
    • 4.5 Power Pistol behind a 124 gr ranier at 1.125
    • 3.7 WW231 behind a 124 gr ranier at 1.125
    • 4.7 gr wsf behind a 124 gr ranier at 1.125
    They are all light IDPA loads.
     
  16. fredj338

    fredj338
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    I'm NOT saying you should shorten OAL, I am asking if the round is engaging the rifling now. Use yourremoved bbl as a gage, drop the round in & is should seat easily. If it sticks above the hood, you may be seating into the rifling & increasing pressure. You can't really compress a normal load of WSF w/ a 124gr bullet IMO, but something else is wrong. I have run much higher WSF charges under 124gr LTC & JHP & don;t get primers that look like that.
     
  17. Memnok

    Memnok
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    I think I will look at picking up a lighter spring. But there is still something wrong with my loads that is not guide/spring related because factory loads seemed to cycle the gun just fine. I think fredj338 is on the right track.

    I usually do pull the barrel and drop a bullet in to check for length. I also load a couple up into a magazine (ya, have made some too long to fit there too).

    I think I am going to make a test round at 1.141", and another at 1.125" as Shotgunred has used. I'm interested in comparing how deep they each seat in the barrel.
     
  18. Memnok

    Memnok
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    I seated some bullets and tested them in the 40 to 9 barrel:

    Over all length of 1.125:


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Over all length of 1.141:


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    No bullet (empty case, not even re-sized):


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    As I look at the photos, it does not look like the longer 1.141 bullets are sitting high in the chamber. They don't stick, or get stuck, and make the same sound (tone) when the drop in. I know that the tone is not exactly scientific or anything, they just "sound" to me like they are stopping at the same place in the chamber.

    So, any other ideas?

    This is a 2nd generation Glock if that matters at all. Purchased new in about 1994'ish.

    Like I siad in my last post, this had got to be a load issue, because the factory ammo seems to cycle the gun with no problems.
     
  19. albyihat

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    I am looking at getting the same conversion for my g22. Everything I have read says the spring should be good to go and as long as you use bullets heaver then 115gr it should function fine. So please keep this thread updated as I would like to know what fixes your problem. Can you try some different powders? It sounds like factory loads are working just fine, so I agree with you it must be something with your load.
     
  20. cole

    cole
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    Berry's plating can be thicker. IMO, okay to load more like FMJ in non-magnum loads. My Berry's 124gr 9mm loaded the same as FMJ with TG.

    It's not just about hardness of the bullet. Pressures can also depend on the bullet diameter and that of your barrel.

    I think the .40sw striker spear is longer than the 9mm. They are not the same part # for sure.

    Soft primers are easier to pierce. Duh there. I've pierced Remingtons. Not CCI or Winchesters.