close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

9mm/.357sig/40cal/45acp/10mm question?

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by M&P Shooter, Aug 30, 2010.


Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. M&P Shooter

    M&P Shooter
    Expand Collapse
    Metal Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2009
    10,639
    1
    Location:
    Phila, PA
    I don't want to hear what is better I want to know if anybody has a link to any site that has done some testing on animals(Not gel) or compared LE shootings involving service handgun calibers. I just want to do a little research on a comparison of service calibers against something with skin and bones:wavey:
     

    Wanna kill these ads? We can help!
  2. MrSmoofy

    MrSmoofy
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2008
    957
    0
    Location:
    Tallahassee, FL
    (tagged as I'm interested in this too)
     

  3. fredj338

    fredj338
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    21,465
    816
    Location:
    so.cal.
    I doubt you'll find that sort of official testing. PETA would be all over that one. It's why everyone uses balistic gel, it's repeatable, & no one protests. The next best thing, someone that hunts a lot of deer or hogs w/ diff service rounds.
     
  4. mikeflys1

    mikeflys1
    Expand Collapse
    Pastafarian

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    3,645
    4
    Location:
    CT
  5. PersonOfInterest

    PersonOfInterest
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2008
    631
    0
    Location:
    Australia
    Only my own testing and out of the calibers youve mentioned the only i havent tryed with my culling (pest control) is the 10mm, although i have shot a few.
    That being said a fast 9mm or 357sig (top score goes the 357magnum) to me have been the best (all things considered) but its never black and white.
     
  6. BleedNOrange

    BleedNOrange
    Expand Collapse
    Go Vols

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    1,327
    0
    Location:
    Volunteer State
  7. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    19,400
    1,936
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    The only formal animal testing I've heard of was the Strasbourg Tests. I've not even convinced that ever actually happened.
     
    #7 cowboy1964, Aug 31, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
  8. fredj338

    fredj338
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    21,465
    816
    Location:
    so.cal.
    There are lots of antecdotal stories, but hardly statistical testing. M&S would be more reliable IMO than "I shot a deer @ this range & the bullet did this". One animal is nice, 100 is getting into imperical.
     
  9. Berto

    Berto
    Expand Collapse
    woo woo

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    24,032
    1,909
    Location:
    WA
    Old, but look up Thompson/ LaGarde.
     
  10. BleedNOrange

    BleedNOrange
    Expand Collapse
    Go Vols

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    1,327
    0
    Location:
    Volunteer State
    The OP asked for examples of real results. THIS was a real result. Sorry it didnt meet your approval. The author probably does have "empirical" data however this was just one example.
     
  11. fredj338

    fredj338
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    21,465
    816
    Location:
    so.cal.
    No need to be a dick. The OP actually asked for a link to comperative testing between animlas & people. My point is one single "I did this" is anecdotal, not scientific. Play nice, I try, but some make it difficult.:dunno:
     
  12. chemcmndr

    chemcmndr
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2008
    829
    0
    Location:
    Beavercreek, OH
    What about Marshall & Sannow's data? Wasn't that compiled from police shootings? I understand several people don't like their data analysis method, but I think it's something more than just ballistic gel tests.
     
  13. marvin

    marvin
    Expand Collapse
    sci-fi nut

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2001
    763
    6
    Location:
    greentown ind.
    it's a long way from a 100 but i've shot 11 deer with a .357, 8 were shot with 158 grain rem sjhp reloads loaded to 1400 fps. inside of 30 yards all of the bullets exited, only a couple fell right there, none ran over 75 yards.

    then i read where a hunter was getting good results with 125 grain jhp's so i gave them a try reload to 1600 fps. the first 2 dropped right there. the third one was at a bit of an angle and i hit the shoulder. well she lead me on a marry chase, i was able to end about a 1/4 mile away. the bullet tore up the shoulder pretty bad and just barely got on lung.

    what i decided was that one a true broadside the 125 worked good but hard angles are a no no. i soon switched to a muzzeloader and haven't use a hand gun in 20 years.

    ps. all of the deer weighed form about 100 pounds to just shy of 200.
     
  14. ldrichard

    ldrichard
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2006
    240
    3
    Location:
    Jacksonville
    http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701267.pdf

    This is a copy of the results of the Strasbourg Tests.

    The tables of interest begin on Page 11. The last column (AIT) for each load is the one you are interested in.

    AIT = Average Incapacition Time for that round, in that caliber, in that gun.

    The first ten pages are good for those who care about the technical information.

    Have a nice read.
     
  15. BleedNOrange

    BleedNOrange
    Expand Collapse
    Go Vols

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    1,327
    0
    Location:
    Volunteer State
    Piss off. At least I offered a link to a real result. All you have done is flap your trap. Go bother someone else.
     
  16. jwizzl497

    jwizzl497
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    453
    0
    Just an FYI. I took the data form the report. I averaged the ATI scores for each caliber and then sorted by average ati smallest to largest. Here are the results.

    <TABLE style="WIDTH: 144pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=191><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 62pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2998" width=82><COL style="WIDTH: 82pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3986" width=109><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 62pt; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20 width=82>.357Mag </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 82pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 width=109 align=right>7.36</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>10mmMV </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>7.59</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.45ACP </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl64 align=right>7.83</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.40S&W </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>7.96</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>9mm </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl66 align=right>9.28</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.38Sp </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>11.74</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.380ACP </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>13.24</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    Interestingly enough, I found this tends to agree with other paper data. I often find that "Paper Data" (although absolutley inconclusive of any real word results) tends to product a similiar ranking. For what it's worth (and serioulsy its worth nothing becuase we all know there is no such thing as stopping power) I find this pattern recurring and interesting, nonetheless...

    The 10mm usually comes out first, followed very closely by 45acp, whose followed very closely by 357sig. The 40sw seems to be a very very close to 357sig but ever so slightly behind by a small margin. The 9mm, imo, seems to be a noticeable step behind the others and the 380s are an even greater lag behind the 9. I never saw this data before and I really think it's interesting that it seems to fit this ranking well. Shame there was no 357sig in the mix but I imagine it would have produced worse but similiar results to the 357mag.
     
    #16 jwizzl497, Aug 31, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
  17. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    19,400
    1,936
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    Thanks for doing that. The figures do fall quite in line with what one would expect. It also shows how little difference there is between the major calibers (9mm and up). I notice in the raw data though that there is a lot of variation among each caliber depending on the ammo. So a good 9mm can beat a poor 45. Again, nothing new.

    Gotta take this data with a grain of salt of course. The lighter, frangible bullets way outperformed the heavier JHPs yet I don't think that translates to the real world exactly. It almost looks like a commercial for MagSafe.
     
    #17 cowboy1964, Sep 1, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2010
  18. Glolt20-91

    Glolt20-91
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2005
    3,931
    64
    Location:
    Arizona Territory
    .357mag/158gr Remington SJHPs had an excellent one shot, one stop record regarding OIS in the state I worked. Paco Kelly writes the same terminal results with Federal agencies who carried Winchester 158gr JHPs (and 160gr); Paco also writes that the 125gr SJHP was lethal when it performed. There were times when the soft lead hollow points clogged upon penetrating certain types of clothing.

    From Paco Kelly;

    From a homicide detective I know who worked in a high crime city, referring to a home invasion, self defense shooting the Rem 158gr SJHP;

    In all the various types of testing I've done, I've never seen either the 125gr/158gr shallow cavity design Gold Dots fail to expand.

    Bob :cowboy:
     
    #18 Glolt20-91, Sep 1, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2010
  19. fredj338

    fredj338
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    21,465
    816
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Well, I don't offer links to irrelevent info. Sorry if that doesn't meet your mall ninja status. Geeze kid, grow up. I love how tough internet commandos are.:yawn:
     
  20. jwizzl497

    jwizzl497
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    453
    0
    I was thinking the same thing. You are also absolutely correct in that a good performing 9mm can outperform a 45acp round. Which leads to even more paralysis of analysis. Bottom line is research, test, practice with the caliber you have.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.