close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

Welcome to Glock Talk

Why should YOU join our Glock forum?

  • Converse with other Glock Enthusiasts
  • Learn about the latest hunting products
  • Becoming a member is FREE and EASY

If you consider yourself a beginner or an avid shooter, the Glock Talk community is your place to discuss self defense, concealed carry, reloading, target shooting, and all things Glock.

9mm/.357sig/40cal/45acp/10mm question?

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by M&P Shooter, Aug 30, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. M&P Shooter

    M&P Shooter Metal Member

    10,639
    1
    Jul 19, 2009
    Phila, PA
    I don't want to hear what is better I want to know if anybody has a link to any site that has done some testing on animals(Not gel) or compared LE shootings involving service handgun calibers. I just want to do a little research on a comparison of service calibers against something with skin and bones:wavey:
     

  2. fredj338

    fredj338

    21,708
    925
    Dec 22, 2004
    so.cal.
    I doubt you'll find that sort of official testing. PETA would be all over that one. It's why everyone uses balistic gel, it's repeatable, & no one protests. The next best thing, someone that hunts a lot of deer or hogs w/ diff service rounds.
     
  3. PersonOfInterest

    PersonOfInterest

    631
    0
    Dec 17, 2008
    Australia
    Only my own testing and out of the calibers youve mentioned the only i havent tryed with my culling (pest control) is the 10mm, although i have shot a few.
    That being said a fast 9mm or 357sig (top score goes the 357magnum) to me have been the best (all things considered) but its never black and white.
     
  4. BleedNOrange

    BleedNOrange Go Vols

    1,327
    0
    Jan 31, 2009
    Volunteer State
  5. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

    19,734
    2,152
    Sep 4, 2009
    U.S.A.
    The only formal animal testing I've heard of was the Strasbourg Tests. I've not even convinced that ever actually happened.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
  6. fredj338

    fredj338

    21,708
    925
    Dec 22, 2004
    so.cal.
    There are lots of antecdotal stories, but hardly statistical testing. M&S would be more reliable IMO than "I shot a deer @ this range & the bullet did this". One animal is nice, 100 is getting into imperical.
     
  7. Berto

    Berto woo woo

    24,185
    2,135
    Sep 15, 2003
    WA
  8. BleedNOrange

    BleedNOrange Go Vols

    1,327
    0
    Jan 31, 2009
    Volunteer State
    The OP asked for examples of real results. THIS was a real result. Sorry it didnt meet your approval. The author probably does have "empirical" data however this was just one example.
     
  9. fredj338

    fredj338

    21,708
    925
    Dec 22, 2004
    so.cal.
    No need to be a dick. The OP actually asked for a link to comperative testing between animlas & people. My point is one single "I did this" is anecdotal, not scientific. Play nice, I try, but some make it difficult.:dunno:
     
  10. chemcmndr

    chemcmndr

    829
    0
    Aug 23, 2008
    Beavercreek, OH
    What about Marshall & Sannow's data? Wasn't that compiled from police shootings? I understand several people don't like their data analysis method, but I think it's something more than just ballistic gel tests.
     
  11. marvin

    marvin sci-fi nut

    763
    6
    Mar 26, 2001
    greentown ind.
    it's a long way from a 100 but i've shot 11 deer with a .357, 8 were shot with 158 grain rem sjhp reloads loaded to 1400 fps. inside of 30 yards all of the bullets exited, only a couple fell right there, none ran over 75 yards.

    then i read where a hunter was getting good results with 125 grain jhp's so i gave them a try reload to 1600 fps. the first 2 dropped right there. the third one was at a bit of an angle and i hit the shoulder. well she lead me on a marry chase, i was able to end about a 1/4 mile away. the bullet tore up the shoulder pretty bad and just barely got on lung.

    what i decided was that one a true broadside the 125 worked good but hard angles are a no no. i soon switched to a muzzeloader and haven't use a hand gun in 20 years.

    ps. all of the deer weighed form about 100 pounds to just shy of 200.
     
  12. ldrichard

    ldrichard

    241
    3
    Nov 11, 2006
    Jacksonville
    http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701267.pdf

    This is a copy of the results of the Strasbourg Tests.

    The tables of interest begin on Page 11. The last column (AIT) for each load is the one you are interested in.

    AIT = Average Incapacition Time for that round, in that caliber, in that gun.

    The first ten pages are good for those who care about the technical information.

    Have a nice read.
     
  13. BleedNOrange

    BleedNOrange Go Vols

    1,327
    0
    Jan 31, 2009
    Volunteer State
    Piss off. At least I offered a link to a real result. All you have done is flap your trap. Go bother someone else.
     
  14. jwizzl497

    jwizzl497

    453
    0
    Mar 3, 2009
    Just an FYI. I took the data form the report. I averaged the ATI scores for each caliber and then sorted by average ati smallest to largest. Here are the results.

    <TABLE style="WIDTH: 144pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=191><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 62pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2998" width=82><COL style="WIDTH: 82pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3986" width=109><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 62pt; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20 width=82>.357Mag </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 82pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 width=109 align=right>7.36</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>10mmMV </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>7.59</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.45ACP </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl64 align=right>7.83</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.40S&W </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>7.96</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>9mm </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl66 align=right>9.28</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.38Sp </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>11.74</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 15pt; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl63 height=20>.380ACP </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #f0f0f0; BORDER-LEFT: #f0f0f0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: #f0f0f0; BORDER-RIGHT: #f0f0f0" class=xl65 align=right>13.24</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    Interestingly enough, I found this tends to agree with other paper data. I often find that "Paper Data" (although absolutley inconclusive of any real word results) tends to product a similiar ranking. For what it's worth (and serioulsy its worth nothing becuase we all know there is no such thing as stopping power) I find this pattern recurring and interesting, nonetheless...

    The 10mm usually comes out first, followed very closely by 45acp, whose followed very closely by 357sig. The 40sw seems to be a very very close to 357sig but ever so slightly behind by a small margin. The 9mm, imo, seems to be a noticeable step behind the others and the 380s are an even greater lag behind the 9. I never saw this data before and I really think it's interesting that it seems to fit this ranking well. Shame there was no 357sig in the mix but I imagine it would have produced worse but similiar results to the 357mag.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
  15. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

    19,734
    2,152
    Sep 4, 2009
    U.S.A.
    Thanks for doing that. The figures do fall quite in line with what one would expect. It also shows how little difference there is between the major calibers (9mm and up). I notice in the raw data though that there is a lot of variation among each caliber depending on the ammo. So a good 9mm can beat a poor 45. Again, nothing new.

    Gotta take this data with a grain of salt of course. The lighter, frangible bullets way outperformed the heavier JHPs yet I don't think that translates to the real world exactly. It almost looks like a commercial for MagSafe.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2010
  16. .357mag/158gr Remington SJHPs had an excellent one shot, one stop record regarding OIS in the state I worked. Paco Kelly writes the same terminal results with Federal agencies who carried Winchester 158gr JHPs (and 160gr); Paco also writes that the 125gr SJHP was lethal when it performed. There were times when the soft lead hollow points clogged upon penetrating certain types of clothing.

    From Paco Kelly;

    From a homicide detective I know who worked in a high crime city, referring to a home invasion, self defense shooting the Rem 158gr SJHP;

    In all the various types of testing I've done, I've never seen either the 125gr/158gr shallow cavity design Gold Dots fail to expand.

    Bob :cowboy:
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2010
  17. fredj338

    fredj338

    21,708
    925
    Dec 22, 2004
    so.cal.
    Well, I don't offer links to irrelevent info. Sorry if that doesn't meet your mall ninja status. Geeze kid, grow up. I love how tough internet commandos are.:yawn:
     
  18. jwizzl497

    jwizzl497

    453
    0
    Mar 3, 2009
    I was thinking the same thing. You are also absolutely correct in that a good performing 9mm can outperform a 45acp round. Which leads to even more paralysis of analysis. Bottom line is research, test, practice with the caliber you have.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.