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45 Super Chrono Data G30/G21C

Discussion in 'The Big Dawgs Club' started by turbonatr, Nov 9, 2003.

  1. SickDick


    Apr 24, 2012
    185 gr. - 11.3 gr Power Pistol - 1373 FPS
    230 gr. - 10 gr Power Pistol - 1213 FPS
    Starline .45 Super brass.

    Stock barrel is running about 50 FPS slower.
  2. SickDick


    Apr 24, 2012
    So I tossed the shock buff and got some wolff extra power mag springs and headed out to the range. I started with some .45 acp 230 gr. handloads, she ran good. Then I went to some 185 gr .45 supers, again ran good. Went back to some .45 acp's and things started to fall apart, wouldn't always cycle the next round again. Went back to the 45 super and she started jamming on the bullet. HELP! I need this gun to RUN BABY RUN.

  3. SickDick


    Apr 24, 2012
    SHE RUNS, SHE RUNS!! I tried the 2 mag springs and all problems went away. I can get 11 in the mag and 13 with +2 mag extenders. I used 1 stock spring and 1 Wolff spring together in each mag, the Wolff springs are coiled a little different so they fit inside the stock spring. I am now thinking about getting some springs for the 25 round mags and cutting them to the necessary size to function and maybe I will be able to get 1 more round in the mag.
  4. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Glockoholic

    I posted this earlier here on GT in another thread, I figured it would be valuable here:

    A little more data here. I wanted to mess around a little with 200gr bullets in the Super. All loaded to 1.220" using 200gr Speer TMJ, CCI LP primers and new Starline cases. 4.6" KKM barrel used in the G21sf and captured 22lb RSA.

    Temp was pretty hot, around 90 degrees but humidity wasn't that bad, I'm at about 1000-1050 ft above sea level. Loaded up three batches using Power Pistol. 10.5gr, 10.8gr, and 11gr. Five shot averages.

    10.5gr PP average: 1209 fps / 649 ft-lbs
    10.8gr PP average: 1241 fps / 683 ft-lbs
    11.0gr PP average: 1278 fps / 725 ft-lbs

    All brass looked good, primers were not flattened. All did have some extractor rash on them, but not severe.
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
  5. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Glockoholic

    More data! I ran through an assortment of .45 ACP and .45 Super loads today. All shot from my Gen4 Glock 21 with 4 port KKM barrel (approx 5" in length). Listed .45 Super loads used new Starline brass and CCI LP primers. The velocities are averages.

    10gr Power Pistol, 230gr XTP @ 1.260": 1177 fps (707 ft-lbs)

    Previously I had loaded 9.5gr at a shorter 1.230" and got 1135 fps average out of my older stock length KKM barrel (4.6"), but it was also about 90 degrees outside, whereas with the data today, temps were around 50 degrees. My new KKM 4 port will accept XTP's loaded out to 1.260" (and longer, but I don't see going past 1.260") but my previous stock length barrel would only accept them @ 1.230".

    My goal is 1200 fps with a 230gr JHP. If it was warmer out, I could have gotten it I think, but next up I'm going to try 10gr PP @ ~1.240-1.250". Brass looked good throughout all testing and I feel this is safe and should get me to, and even over, the 1200 fps mark. A note on bullets, I chose the XTP for several reasons. One I have more of them, and they're shorter than 230gr Gold Dots and I feel they might hold up the best at these speeds. The 230gr Gold Dot is definitely longer than the 230gr XTP, so loaded to the same OAL, powder charge would need to decrease, then work your way back up. I know it isn't scientific, but the 230gr Gold Dot @ 1175-1200 fps blows apart in water jugs, and I do mean completely blows apart, all the pedals sheared off except one what was barely hanging on.

    On game, the Gold Dot probably wouldn't come apart quite as bad since water jugs have a tenancy to exaggerate expansion. Either way, the XTP and Gold Dot are my two go-to hollow point bullets for the .45 Super.

    More data:
    11.3gr Power Pistol, 200gr XTP @ 1.260": 1351 fps (810+ ft-lbs)
    Very impressed with this, although it may be too much of a good thing. The biggest issue I see concerning the .45 Super (a problem made even worse in the 460 Rowland) is that I'm pushing bullets designed for .45 ACP velocities well above what they're "supposed" to be driven. This doesn't make it "bad", it just means that one should almost expect bullet failure. Just throwing that out there for thought.

    The 200gr XTP and 200gr Gold Dot are very similar in length, and both are my pick for bullets most likely to hold together.

    9.5gr 800x, 230gr FMJ @ 1.260": 1080 fps (very consistent, extreme spread of 7 fps). I was uncertain of what to expect with this load, but it shot very well. Not the most powerful 230gr load, but still offers around 600 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

    8.5gr Power Pistol, 250gr hardcast Missouri "PinBusters" @ 1.220": 1101 fps (673 ft-lbs) This bullet is hardcast and although I prefer other designs, this one should get the job done, and they're inexpensive to boot.

    I've been curious of ~250gr bullets in the .45 Super, and it's something I plan on playing with more. Next up I'm going to do 250gr Gold Dots ("Deepcurl")and I'm going to order some Beartooth 255gr WFN bullets. The 250gr Gold Dot is very long, but it will feed if I seat it to a max OAL of 1.210", which is right around the canalure anyways. Data is non existent so I will have to work up a load for it, but that's almost the case with any .45 Super. My goal is 1050-1100 fps with it.

    The Beartooth 255 WFN is a very short bullet for it's weight, so that could be very interesting. I know a guy on here has loaded up the Beartooth 265gr WFNGC and got it up to ~1150 fps. My goal for the 255gr WFN is ~1150 fps from my 5" KKM barrel, that's more than enough for any critter I would use, and if I need more the 454 Casull comes out.

    Also I plan on coming up with some VV 3N38 data as well, it's been very impressive in my 6" G24 bbl and I feel it could be awesome as well in the .45 Super.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012
  6. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Glockoholic

    Some more data I got yesterday, all velocities are averages and shot from my Gen4 G21 w/KKM 4 port barrel (5"). Temp was around 50 degrees. Brass is new Starline and I use CCI LP primers.

    I am also using a captured 22lb RSA, I use the Glockworx adapter ring for Gen4's Glocks. It works like a charm on all my Gen4 Glocks in case you want to use gen3 recoil spring assemblies in your Gen4.

    230gr FMJ, 9.8r Power Pistol @ 1.250": 1174 fps

    250gr Gold Dot, 8gr Power Pistol @ 1.215": 1031 fps (8 fps extreme spread!!)

    255gr Beartooth WFN (250gr), 8.8gr Power Pistol @ 1.175": 1125 fps

    Notes: Previously the 230gr XTP @ 1.260 averaged 1177 fps, and my Precision Delta 230gr FMJ bullets are longer than the 230gr XTP. Next round will be the 230gr XTP loaded to 1.240-1.250 w/10gr Power Pistol.

    All brass looked good. The 250gr Gold Dot load was a soft shooter for sure and I feel going 8.2gr PP is safe. A quick note, just like the 230gr Gold Dot, I don't feel the 250gr Gold Dot is meant for real high velocities.

    It's been my experience that the longer pedal (usually heavier weight) Gold Dots don't hold up as well as the shorter pedal ones. An example, a 165gr Gold Dot from my .40 cal Gen4 G35 w/KKM 6" G24 barrel averages 1400 fps with VV 3N38, but held together very well and very uniformly in water whereas the 230gr Gold Dot in the .45 Super driven to around 1200 fps completely came apart. The 250gr Gold Dot is the same, I've driven it faster than it's meant to out of a warm .45 Colt and it too came apart.

    I feel both bullets (230gr and 250gr Gold Dot) should be kept under 1100 fps. So after chronographing the 250gr Gold Dots, I loaded up one more with 8.2gr Power Pistol @ 1.210" and shot it into some jugs. Penetrated 4 jugs and did a real number on the first two and split the bottom of the third. I know, I know, water jug "testing" isn't really testing, but IMHO if it holds together in water, it will likely hold together in critters. If it penetrates deep in water, you can rest assured it's a deep penetrator.

    I'm guessing the impact velocity to be around 1050 fps, here's a pic:


    Soft shooting, deep penetration, expanded to an avg of about .75 cal and and 8 fps extreme spread. Looks like my quest for the 250gr Gold Dot in the .45 Super is complete. Oh, the shredded bullet in the background is a 230gr Gold Dot driven to around 1200 fps.

    The Beartooth 255gr WFN is a nice bullet, although I had to seat it deeper than I really wanted, it's not so bad. The reason is that it's a very short bullet for it's weight, shorter than my 230gr bullets. 1.175" was the longest OAL it would chamber in my barrel. However, since it's so short, the base of the bullet isn't protruding any deeper into the case than any other bullet despite it's shorter OAL. Next up, I'm trying 9gr Power Pistol seated to 1.170".
  7. dougader


    Apr 17, 2004
    I ordered the 255 from Beartooth just for my G21sf in 45 Super, but found the same as you: I had to seat it a lot deeper than I wanted.

    So just for kicks I tried their 265 WFN-GC bullet. I ordered the 265's for a standard pressure 45 Colt load in my Alan Harton 45 Colt Montado. For 45 Super I seat this one about 1.186", right at the crimping groove (although I use a taper crimp die for this round).

    I've been very happy with the 265 WFNGC from Beartooth, although I do want to take a look at that Hunters Supply 275 WFN as well.

    I use a 6", 4-port barrel from Lone Wolf Dist. Its been a great barrel, but I loaded my rounds to the barrel in order to keep the tight chamber. Its easy to load up a dummy round. Just keep seating the bullet deeper a little at a time until it drops easy into the barrel/chamber.

    I hear what people are saying about Blue Dot, but I have been using it for at least two decades and have never had a problem, except when I used magnum primers in a load that was worked up with standard primers. I never use mag primers with Blue Dot.

    Now, usually, Blue Dot doesn't turn in real low standard deviation numbers (SD) or extreme spread (ES) numbers, but has generally been accurate. However, in working up the 265 WFNGC I found that the pressure and velocity moved up fairly predictably - in a linear fashion - and I had some great ES's of 16 and 11 fps! :wow:

    If I wasn't still working on my last keg of Blue Dot, I'd probaly try Power Pistol or Longshot, though.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  8. My G30 460 Rowland conversion ran 45 Super and 460 Rowland flawlessly today...

  9. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Glockoholic

    More fresh .45 Super data from Gen4 G21 w/4 port KKM barrel (barrel itself w/threading is 5" long)

    New Starline brass and CCI LP:

    230gr FMJ, 9.5gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,185 fps (15 fps ES!!) That's 717 ft-lbs!

    230gr FMJ, 9.8gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,229 fps (37 fps ES) That's 771 ft-lbs!

    "255gr" Beartooth WFN, 9.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.175": 1,179 fps (13 fps ES!) That's 772 ft-lbs (it really weighs in at 250gr, not 255gr)

    "280gr" Beartooth WFNGC, 8.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.180": 1,065 fps (24 fps ES) That's 693 ft-lbs (it's a 275gr, not 280gr)

    Notes: brass looked good on all loads. I had no previous data on the 280gr WFNGC, so I used 8.0gr. I feel 8.2gr would have been safe, even possibly 8.4/8.5gr. That should get me the 1100 fps I'm after, but I'm not disappointed since 1,065 fps is pretty close and it's still gonna kill quick and penetrate well.
  10. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Glockoholic

    Too nice of a day to pass up! I had a few ideas in my head and wanted to see the results. Temperature between 55-60 degress outside and the gun is my normal, Gen4 G21 with KKM 4 port compensated barrel (5") with 22lb RSA (gen3). CCI LP primers and new Starline brass was used.

    Working with Power Pistol and Longshot today:

    250gr XTP, 8.5gr Power Pistol @ 1.190": 1,104 fps (20 fps ES)

    250gr XTP, 9.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.190": 1,128 fps (38 fps ES)

    250gr XTP, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.190": 1,124 fps (12 fps ES!)

    250gr XTP, 9.0gr Longshot @ 1.190": 1,164 fps (22 fps ES)

    I like that the 250gr XTP has a somewhat short OAL, quite a bit shorter than my other 250gr HP, the Speer Gold Dot aka "Deep Curl". I was wanting over 1,100 fps and I got it, but was still curious as to how much, if any, it would expand at that velocity. I had to seat the bullet to 1.190" in order for it to chamber in the KKM, as 1.200" was just a hair too long, literally.

    I think where the .45 Super/460 Rowland shine is not with .45 ACP designed bullets, although they can be pushed a little bit and still be okay. I think it's with the heavier 250gr+ bullets. Those bullets are usually designed tougher than ACP style bullets yet out of the Super/Rowland you don't have to worry about pushing them too fast because the bullets will take it. I believe the XTP is rated up to 1500-1600 fps, which you'll never see in a Super/Rowland.

    Although unscientific, I loaded one up with Longshot and shot it into lined up water jugs and it penetrated to the 5th jug, shedding a little weight and coming in at 242.3gr, impact velocity over 1150 fps. Interestingly, with the same sectional density, a 200gr .400" XTP from a 6" .40 S&W will do over 1200 fps and also penetrate to the 5th jug. Both would be great choices on game. By comparison, a .451" 200gr XTP (.45 ACP designed) will do over 1300 fps from the Super, but only penetrates 3 jugs, although it did expand bigger, which is to be expected. Picture of the 250gr XTP:


    I would have to say that I'm satisfied with a 250gr XTP leaving at over 1,150 fps, that's near 750 ft-lbs. To put that in perspective, that's as fast (or faster) than a .45 ACP 185gr +P and weights 65gr heavier, or the same speed as the 85gr lighter 165gr .40 S&W factory load.
  11. GRT45

    GRT45 Transform & Win

    Jun 20, 2010
    45 Super 250gr XTP at over 1,150 fps yields a Taylor KO Factor (TKOF) of 18.

    That is exceptional for 45 Super; better than the top ranked factory ammo for TKOF which is Buffalo Bore at TKOF 17 (45 Super 255gr HC-FN 1075 fps, 654 ft-lbf). TKOF 18 is right up there in the beginning range of .460 Rowland.

    I like the option of a heavy jacketed XTP bullet versus hardcast lead from Buffalo Bore. I would buy some of these 45 Super XTP loads if an ammo manufacturer offered it commercially. I may drop a line to Underwood Ammo and link to your post.

    Thanks for the report. Good job!
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  12. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Glockoholic

    Thank you GRT45, sorry I didn't see your post until now though!
  13. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Glockoholic

    I've got some more .45 Super I'm going to work up, but in the meantime I found a nice little load for the .45 ACP. Shot from a stock Glock 30 Gen4 (3.78" barrel):

    250gr Missouri RNFP "PinBuster" hardcast, 7.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.180": 910 fps avg, 3 fps extreme spread!

    1.180 was the longest OAL that would chamber in the Glock barrel, I can load them a little longer out of the G21 KKM barrel but what I was looking for I found. And that is a load that packs a good punch, easily capable of dealing with most critters you would come into contact with in the woods, in the lower 48 at least! I feel this is a good solid load in a good carry-able package (G30).

    Although I haven't tried them in the Glock barrel yet, the Beartooth 255gr WFN hardcast would be an even better option because 1) it's shorter than the Missouri RNFP and 2) has a larger meplat (flat nose) on it which is better if you want even more damage. As long as it cycled it would be a great choice too for those that only load for the .45 ACP.
  14. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Glockoholic

    Got some beautiful Hunters Supply 275gr FN hardcasts in the mail yesterday!


    Very good profile, I can even load them to 1.260" too so that's fantastic. I loaded some up today with them, mainly just to get a base. My goal is 1,100 fps from the 5" KKM, and I'm essentially there, just shy but that's easily fixed. Here's what I have for now:

    275gr Hunters Supply, 8.5gr Power Pistol @ 1.260": 1,078 fps (29 fps ES) That's a TKO rating of 19.1!

    275gr Hunters Supply, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.260": 1,075 fps (16 fps ES!)

    275gr Hunters Supply, 9.2gr 800x @ 1.260": 1,075 fps (26 fps ES)

    275gr Hunters Supply, 10.0gr Blue Dot @ 1.260": 1,009 fps (22 fps ES!)

    I sure didn't expect Power Pistol, Longshot and 800x to give me almost identical results. What I'm going to do next is drop the oal to around 1.250" and with both Longshot and Power Pistol work some a 8.4gr, 8.6gr and even try 8.8gr.

    Blue Dot did well, just not as well...likely needs more powder! However since there's really not any data out there most of this was just to get an idea of where to go next.

    A few little things extra. For a good stout .45 ACP load, a week or two ago I loaded up 7.0gr Power Pistol under a Missouri 250gr RNFP "PinBuster" at 1.180". These are loaded at this OAL only because that's the longest that would chamber in the Glock 30 Gen4. This same load averaged 910 fps from the 3.78" Glock 30 and out of the 5" KKM today, it averaged 975 fps. That's a pretty stout .45 ACP, and honestly, I'm real impressed with this load. I suspect around 950 fps from the Glock 21. Very useful and very potent for sure, and it's caused me to have have a whole new respect for this ole warhorse of a cartridge, just fantastic.

    One more. Probably the epitome of useless, but in case you have some 395gr Cast Performance WLNGC bullets laying around and a Ruger to shoot them in, from my 5.5" Bisley:

    395gr Cast Performance WLNGC, 19.0gr H110 @ 1.720": 1,007 fps (22 fps ES!)

    395gr Cast Performance WLNGC, 16.0gr Lil'Gun @ 1.720": 968 fps (18 fps ES!)

    Not real fast, but it's almost 1oz of lead too. I'm sure I could drive it faster but I don't really see a point to it. Just another load that there is almost zero data for. I'm sure I with a 7.5" barrel one could get close to 1,100 fps. But my preferred heavy load for my 5.5" Bisley is:

    330gr Beartooth WFNPB, 22gr Lil'Gun @ 1.625": 1,287 fps (29 fps ES)

    BUT! This is a .45 Super thread and I'll have more before long.
    400 Super likes this.
  15. dougader


    Apr 17, 2004
    For Blue Dot, I started with a single line of data from the Real Guns site that lists the Speer 260 grain jhp over 10.4 grains Blue Dot for 979 fps. COL was 1.240" and they used CCI 300 primers.

    I loaded up the Beartooth 265 grain WFNGC bullets to 1.185" - 1.186", WLP primers and started at 9.3 grains for just over 1,000 fps with a 6" LWD 4-port barrel.

    I loaded higher, and liked the velocities (up to 1177 fps) and ES as low as 11 fps, but taking into account that the Real Guns data is targeted for 28,000 psi I decided 1,000 fps was good enough for me.

    I'm curious as to why you want to shorten the COL rather than add a little more powder in increments of .01 - .02 grains at a time? I'd think that as long as the rounds feed well I'd leave the COL alone and deal with powder charges instead.

    The BD velocities were linear in my loads and fairy close to what I was expecting. Only the ES's were a surprise to me. Just don't switch up on primers with BD, or shoot in very cold weather.

    I like the 1.240" COL you are able to use with these Hunter Supply bullets, and the meplat still looks good. Are these gas checked bullets or plain base? They look great either way, and at these relatively moderate velocities I don't see where the gas check is really a necessity.
  16. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Glockoholic

    Dougader, generally speaking I load them out about as long as I can so long as they chamber at that OAL. There are instances where I will decrease OAL just slightly as long as there was no pressure signs at the longer OAL. As to why, well I don't have any concrete reason for it, other than seating slightly deeper can increase velocity without adding powder but can also affect how consistent it is. It also adds to it's efficiency although I do understand that it raises pressure somewhat, and sometimes it may benefit reliable functioning. In other words, no real definitive reason, just because.

    I did this today with the 275gr Hunters Supply. Instead of 1.260" I wanted to try 1.250" and see what happened. I just so happened to add .3gr more powder as well (Longshot) and from the 5" barrel I averaged 1,137 fps with a 275gr hardcast with an extreme spread of 15 fps. (789 ft-lbs...)

    The 275gr are a plain base bullet and has a great profile and I've not noticed any excess leading thus far. Speaking of which, I don't think I'm going go too much further. My goal for this 275gr was 1,100 fps. I know I could get 1150 fps if I upped it to 9.0gr Longshot @ 1.250" but other than "just because", I'm totally satisfied and see no reason to push it any further. Almot 800 ft-lbs with an almost 300gr bullet is pretty darn good to me.

    My next post will be the data I collected this afternoon with the 275gr hardcast and the 250gr Speer Gold Dot.
  17. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Glockoholic

    Okay here's the data from the other day. From Gen4 G21 with KKM 4 port barrel (5"). Using new Starline brass and CCI LP primers.

    I've used Longshot before with good results, but wanted to try more of it in the Super. Anyways, here's what I got.

    250gr Speer Gold Dot, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.215": 1,122 fps (35 fps ES) That's 699 ft-lbs !

    275gr Hunters Supply Hardcast, 8.8gr Longshot @ 1.250":1,137 fps (15 fps ES!) That's 790 ft-lbs! (20.1 TKO rating)

    I've got faster with the 250gr XTP but it's shorter than the 250 Gold Dot, which is a rather long bullet. The 1.215" OAL is the longest that will chamber in the G21 KKM barrel, the profile of the 250gr Gold Dot is more blunt, as it's a revolver bullet first and foremost.

    However, what I got above is plenty fast, they will come apart in a hurry if driven too fast. To add, I loaded up a 200gr Gold Dot over 10.2gr Power Pistol and while I didn't chronograph it, I suspect to be hovering around 1200 fps from the 5" KKM since 10.5gr got me 1210 from the 4.6" KKM I used to have.

    Bullet experienced some failure though since it shed several pedals which tells me ~1200 fps is a touch fast but not overly so, and while I know water jug testing isn't the be all end all of bullet testing, it's a media that's somewhat hard on bullets. So while that doesn't mean it will for sure come apart in flesh and bone, if it stays together in water there's a good chance it will in flesh.

    I would say 1100 fps is plenty for the 250gr Gold Dot (and 230gr Gold Dot too). I'm pretty sure there aren't very many animals walking around that a 275gr hardcast at almost 1150 won't sail completely through. My goal was 1100 fps with the 275gr, and I'm beyond that so I probably won't be doing much else to that load, it's more than enough anyways. It's 25gr shy of 300gr and packs almost 800 ft-lbs along with it. Should work quite well [​IMG]
  18. bcowen22001


    Dec 23, 2002
    wow ive never heard of 45 super. I thought I was a gun nut and knew all the latest greatest. guess not.
  19. vaquero aleman

    vaquero aleman "ah-lay-mahn"

    Jan 9, 2009
    The Wild Wild West
    Somebody mentioned the slide weight difference between the G29 and the G30 was significant. If you look at the overall weight between the two I don't really see the difference.

    *alright, so I looked up the weight after the fact:

    G29 - 24.69oz G30 - 23.99oz
    G29SF - 24.52oz G30SF - 20.28oz

    But still, what is the actual weight difference between the two slides and is it really significant?
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  20. vaquero aleman

    vaquero aleman "ah-lay-mahn"

    Jan 9, 2009
    The Wild Wild West
    So, do you think that the 250gr XTP can handle 1200fps? I emailed underwood to see if they could load that for me in 460 Rowland.