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Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by BLACK Z, Apr 7, 2012.
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The 165 grain Gold Dot is a hot round and has a good reputation in police shootings for one shot stops. I was issued the Federal Hydra Shok and put down injured deer with it. An OIS the bad guy was hit three times and two rounds exited. The Hydra Shok is an old design. The 180 grain Gold Dots have two well documented police shootings that caused many agencies to switch to different bullet weights 155 and 165.
The 180gr HST had no issues dealing with auto windshields or sheet steel while having superior performance through other intermediate barriers. With modern non-bonded designs like HST, the concern over maintaining bullet integrity is largely unfounded.
For those who aren't familiar with ballistics testing advancements since the 70's, here's the rationale regarding iwba 4 layer denim testing.
Note that it was developed with support of a major LE agency. It also produced results that correlated quite well with actual OIS's.
Hunter one what shooting's are you referring to?
Could you expand a little on this please ? I know many PD's still carry anyone of the three weights but those that were caused to switch--what were they expecting to gain ? Are you referring to the shooting where the FBI was asked to chip in analyzing why the Gold Dots 180 gr. failed to stop the perp after several hits ? that perp was also hit by numerous .223's.
Exactly, and THE most important part of that link is, and I quote:
, there are some good points here. At the end of the day its Pepsi vs Coke or Ford vs Chevy. Each is a good round and each has its following whether it be the Speer GDHP, Fed HST, Win Ranger T-Series. You cant go wrong with any of these. Each person will post a good reason for their round and its usually valid. This is actually been a pretty good thread to read. Mas Ayoob said before he carried in 9mm the Win 127 +P+ and in the 9mm realm there are arguments for 115, 124, 124 +P, 147. In the 40 S&W its generally 165 or 180 but there are some 135 and 155 fans and a lot of its based on higher velocity. For me 40 S&W in 180 has a slightly less recoil/snappier feeling and I'd use more for target. For carry I'd go with the 165. To each his own.
These were some older tests done, the data is interesting for penetration, velocity and expansion. Again these are some older tests.
.40 S&W 180 grain Federal HydraShok JHP
Test Gun S&W M4006 Barrel Length 4" Velocity 969 fps
.40 S&W 165 grain CCI/Speer Gold Dot JHP,
Test Gun SIG P229 Barrel Length 4" Velocity 1076 fps
Bare Gelatin Penetration Expansion
That is one incident which involved the .223, the other was over 17 hits of 180 grain Gold Dots from a G22. Many agencies did switch to the 155 and 165 grain loads in .40 cal. While some others dropped the .40 for the .45 ACP and .45 GAP. The Hydra Shok is an older design. Test's were performed by an ammunition manufacturer and many agencies wished they never adopted the .40 when they compared it to the other caliber.
OK, interesting how those agencies action taken was inconsistent with the FBI findings, which concluded that the 180 grain ammo had performed exactly as expected and the .223 had not done so well. And that some individuals are just tough nails against bullets. A lot of misconception about the Gold Dots failing miserably.
Id like to read these findings, any links?
Yes scary that that skinny 18 year old kid was able to take all those shots from both the .223 and .40 and still put up a fight with the cops while he was being restrained. The Gold Dot is an excellent bullet. Texas DPS had many failures with the .45 ACP and swithed to different ammo and went to the .357 Sig to solve the problem. Many agencies may have used these OIS as a way to change ammo or switch to newer weapons.
I kind of like this quote:
Meaning they chose denim because it is adequate, cheap, easily obtained, and reproducible by various testers. The best measure of results would be, of course, results. The Marshall & Sanow approach would, in theory, be the best measure of real world performance of handgun rounds because it is a measure of real world bullet performance. Given a large enough sample size, the variables average out and the results are what they are.
And, as a warning to those who get too wrapped up in measuring final expanded bullet diameters:
Hit what you're aiming at and keep shooting until the threat stops or you have to turn your attention to another threat.