close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

Welcome to Glock Talk

Why should YOU join our Glock forum?

  • Converse with other Glock Enthusiasts
  • Learn about the latest hunting products
  • Becoming a member is FREE and EASY

If you consider yourself a beginner or an avid shooter, the Glock Talk community is your place to discuss self defense, concealed carry, reloading, target shooting, and all things Glock.

357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. uz2bUSMC

    uz2bUSMC 10mm defender

    2,398
    2
    Oct 21, 2005
    J-Ville NC
    Policemarksman,

    You're still lost. Yes the above all worked in inanimate objects. You need to learn that your jello murderin' friends are in it for money overall. They can't afford to be wrong. Or rather, exposed to be...
     
  2. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

    3,919
    7
    Dec 4, 2004
    Out West
    Quite a few people have posted clearly noticable greater wounding effects with the 357SIG over the best current 9mm ammo right here in caliber corner on various animals. It was also brought up by Dr. Courtney in the link dahahn provided: http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0702/0702107.pdf I'm talking wounds with a wider wound track and quicker incapacitation on average. Some LE claim the same according to some on GT. At least one Montana highway patrol officer has said the same to fredj338 when it comes to cleanly dispatching deer hit by cars as opposed to the other cartridges they used to use.
    All the barriers you speak of are the direct result of FBI protocol. Aside from those, 357SIG has been shown clearly to outpenetrate even thicker hard barriers betters.

    As for the "numerous OIS incident forensic results", I'm not buying it. Not without seeing the data they actually compared. We've seen to much other evidence that contradicts it. How many incidents with each cartridge were looked at? Of the data, what specific data did they base their decision on? It may seem I'm being picky here, but I've seen BS stuff DocGKR has posted in the past with zero supporting evidence, not to mention that even without proof he preaches dead set against Dr. Courtney's work.
    50% of shooting victims are incapacitated by psychological mechanisms? Ok, maybe loosely, since it can't actually accurately be measured. But that doesn't mean the 357SIG doesn't produce wounding effects over and above the 9mm, 40S&W, or 45, leading to quicker incapacitation some percentage of the time.

    Blast, flash, and noise? :rofl: Jeez, it's not rifle round. Isn't that what we're always told? Just what percent more blast, flash, and noise would you say the 357SIG creates over 9mm, and what specific loads in each are you comparing? It would unquestionably be a stretch to say that's going to happen between the average 357SIG load and 9mm Win 127gr +P+! Heck, if that's the case, my 10mm loads oughta be dropping BGs without even hitting them with the bullet! :upeyes: Yeah, I'ld say the "blast, flash, and noise" is over reaching at best! If that would be the case, I'ld be switching to 44 Mag from a 4" to say the least!
    Yeah, it didn't offered any better performance than their top 9 mm loads and .40 S&W loads because they design all loads to work equally according to FBI protocol. And ballistic gel isn't going to tell them how the bullet actually performs in a human, only relative penetration depth compared to the other bullets/loads they manufacture. No big surpise there.
    Where is CHP reporting this and to whom?
    Like I said, they were designed to perform the same according to all FBI protocols. Clearly the 357SIG loads still will penetrate more hard barrier material than the others, as many have shown.
    Actually, arrows, spears, and daggars, mechanically slice flesh, where bullets generally plow a path. But the paths bullets plow are not created equal, between the spectrum of 9mm - 10mm, as many have posted over time.
    Those are very good skills to start with. After that, some rounds clearly outperform others.
    Here I can't agree depending on the individual.
     


  3. Claemore

    Claemore

    10
    0
    Aug 14, 2006
    Northern Colorado
    Glock20c10mm, better be careful, or DocGKR will come and be mean to you. He is after all, a dentist. They know more about bullets' terminal effects than anyone. Even trauma surgeons...
     
  4. uz2bUSMC

    uz2bUSMC 10mm defender

    2,398
    2
    Oct 21, 2005
    J-Ville NC
    Dentists! they're everywhere! Or was that ninjas?:dunno::rofl:
     
  5. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    6,545
    2
    Feb 6, 2000
    Alaska
    Look at sales figures. The 10mm is not on the rise. Its at the same level as the 41 mag and other obscure rounds. By the way citing experts in the field is BACKING UP WHAT I HAVE TO SAY. I know you have a hard time understanding such things. Time for you to step back post less and listen more. By the way you know absolutely nothing about what happens on the street.
    Pat
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2010
  6. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    6,545
    2
    Feb 6, 2000
    Alaska
    If the 38 expands the same and goes as deep then it will do the same damage as the 357 mag. Its all about shot placement, penetration and bullet expansion. Energy means little to nothing at handgun levels. Human tissue is elastic so unless you have enough energy to rip tissue past what the bullet touches it means nothing.
    Pat
     
  7. Why LE is buying it? Excuse me if I sound cynical. They have budgets. If they don't spend taxpayer money the budget gets reduced. Is it because the 357 Sig is such a manstopper? I don't think there is enough empirical evidence to justify one caliber over another. If the LEO had to purchase his own sidearm, train with it, clean it and depend upon it......heck, it would be just like a teenager who has to save for his first car because his daddy won't buy it for him. He'll work on it, clean it and it will run forever. But that's the way government works. One agency tests and tests and says, "We have to replace such and such with 45 GAP or 357 SIG!" "Why?" they're asked! "Because it is such a "manstopper and we're outgunned." Why are so many civilian would-be Glock buyers standing in line for LE guns that are "retired"? Because they know that there are a good 100k rounds left in the original barrel.
     
  8. LEAD

    LEAD

    1,981
    1
    Jan 9, 2009
    VT
    Oh thats why, because if they didn't buy new weapons and more expensive ammo, the budget would be reduced. Now I completely understand dealing with a lower capacity and more severe recoil, these are sacrifices officers make in order to retain their current budgets. Why didn't you tell us earlier?

    Please take the time to read the other posts before you post stuff like this. Have you read any of the links? There is a plethera of information compiled from people who actually have used this round after actually using other rounds like 9mm I have yet to hear any feedback from people using the .357sig round in a shooting and finding it not to thier tastes. Law enforcement is using the round because its working better, better than 9mm, better than 9mm +p+.

    [​IMG]
    Act like you know.
     
  9. dahahn

    dahahn

    153
    0
    Jan 21, 2010
    Minneapolis, MN
    I have to disagree. Add sudden pressure into a water based system, and you will get pressure spikes all over the place. In various papers regarding pressure wave theory, pigs (test subjects) showed brain hemorrhaging due to the increase in hydraulic pressure which was picked up via sensor in major arteries.

    Tissue damage is what everyone is talking about and what ballistics gelatin tests, but the fact of the matter is that a majority of the human body is water, and will react as such.
     
  10. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    6,545
    2
    Feb 6, 2000
    Alaska
    A lot more cops are using the 9mm than the 357 sig so the 9mm must be the better round.
    Pat
     
  11. Mrs_Esterhouse

    Mrs_Esterhouse

    406
    0
    Jul 19, 2008
    Atlanta, GA
  12. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    6,545
    2
    Feb 6, 2000
    Alaska
    I was making a pun on the person I was quoting. That went right over your head. Also directing someone to Wikipedia for knowledge is laughable at best.
    :rofl:
     
  13. uz2bUSMC

    uz2bUSMC 10mm defender

    2,398
    2
    Oct 21, 2005
    J-Ville NC
    I doubt you even know any experts but I'd like to know who you talked to, because everything is different in Pat's little wolrd. I know more about what happens on the street than you think. I actually have REAL contacts. Not alaskan moonshiners that live in the backwoods.
     
  14. uz2bUSMC

    uz2bUSMC 10mm defender

    2,398
    2
    Oct 21, 2005
    J-Ville NC
    Still needing a terminal ballistics class aswell. You have no idea how bullet construction relates to temporary cavitation I see. Energy is useless if it is not imparted upon it's target and you can have moderate amounts energy from a pistol round do better than a rifle that can't transfer the energy.
     
  15. uz2bUSMC

    uz2bUSMC 10mm defender

    2,398
    2
    Oct 21, 2005
    J-Ville NC
    Depends on who that person is...
     
  16. JBP55

    JBP55

    9,639
    249
    Mar 4, 2007
    Louisiana
    Glock 31 was recently adopted by Mississippi State Police.
     
  17. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    6,545
    2
    Feb 6, 2000
    Alaska
    You are so juvenile. You always resort to personal attacks and temper tantrums. Grow up and start acting like an adult. As for real experts I have had conversations with Evan Marshal and Dr. Roberts himself. I doubt you have any contacts. You're vulgar. immature, and unlearned and those are qualities that professionals don't like to associate with. So I am not going to put any creditably to your claim you have contacts. Contacts at the local gun shop maybe.
    Pat
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2010
  18. uz2bUSMC

    uz2bUSMC 10mm defender

    2,398
    2
    Oct 21, 2005
    J-Ville NC
    That's funny, you have had conversations with these people but in a conversation we had a while back, you didn't even know who Duncan MacPherson was...ok I believe you.
     
  19. Mrs_Esterhouse

    Mrs_Esterhouse

    406
    0
    Jul 19, 2008
    Atlanta, GA
    Cute cover story.
    The Wiki entry pretty much matches my college textbook. BTW, you used an Appeal to Ridicule fallacy there with your Wiki comment. :whistling:
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2010
  20. Free Radical

    Free Radical Miembro Antiguo CLM

    9,988
    0
    Sep 11, 2005
    Four Corners

    :shakehead: Please cite your source for this BS.