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357sig failed to expand

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by frank_drebin, Dec 22, 2009.

  1. frank_drebin

    frank_drebin 1-man flash mob

    4,884
    37
    Jan 15, 2009
    I was in my local gun shop today looking at holsters for my G33. The elderly man that runs the shop asked me what I carried and I told him it was a Glock 33. He said "If you don't mind me giving you a little advice, get a 40S&W barrel for it and lose the 357sig barrel". At first I took it as a basic "my caliber is better than your caliber" comment and just kind of ignored it. He then proceeded to tell me that he shot someone in the store last year with a Glock 32 in 357 sig with 125gr Gold Dots. That got my attention real quick. He said that the round went in the man's chest on the right and exited his lower back without any expansion. He said that in his opinion it was "travelling too fast and didn't have time to expand". That statement didn't make sense to me since that is what the 357sig is supposed to do, travel fast. The man that was shot survived and he stated that it was a very close in shot (around 7 feet). After I left the shop I called an LEO friend in the city and asked him about the incident. He recounted the story (which is a whole different post for sometime) and said the same thing in regards to the 357 sig. He said that the 125gr Gold Dot 357 sig round was a full through and through and that it never expanded based on the exit wound. His theory was that the shot was very close in and the round was travelling at max muzzle velocity when it hit. It struck no bones. The man that was shot was leaning over at an angle when struck.

    Now, based on this I am questioning what may have happened and whether or not my carry ammo is better for expansion under similar circumstances. I carry 147gr Hornady XTP in my G33.

    Any thoughts on this?
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  2. Speer Gold Dots on ballistic gel:


    [​IMG]





    http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/rel.357.factory.htm
    Here is a non-exclusive chart showing several 357 Sig Factory Rounds taken from magazines as listed in the Acknowledgements Section at the end of the &#8220;Why the 357 SIG is Catching On&#8221; article: <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:p></O:p>
    <TABLE style="WIDTH: 437.25pt; mso-cellspacing: 0in; mso-padding-alt: 2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt" class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=583><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Cartridge


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">Velocity


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">Energy


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">Penetration


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">Expansion


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 1"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">CCI-Speer 125 gr. Gold Dot


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1385


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">533


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">16.5


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">.68


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 2"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Cor-Bon 115 gr. Sierra JHP


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1515


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">586


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">12.5


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">.58


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 3"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Cor-Bon 125 gr. Sierra JHP


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1440


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">576


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">13.3


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">frag.


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 4"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Cor-Bon 91 gr. BeeSafe


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1525


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">470


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">7.0


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">frag.


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 5"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Federal 125 gr. JHP


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1430


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">568


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">12.7


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">.62


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 6"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Federal 150 gr. JHP


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1140


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">433


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">18.0


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">.50


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 7"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Federal 125 gr. Tactical


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1410


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">552


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">12.0


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">.65


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 8"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Glaser 80 gr. Blue Safety


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1610


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">461


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">8.0


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">frag.


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 9"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Glaser 80 gr. Silver Safety


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1610


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">461


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">9.0


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">frag.


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 10"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Hornady 124 gr. XTP-HP


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1395


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">536


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">14.5


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">.55


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 11"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Hornady 147 gr. XTP-HP


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1210


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">478


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">16.2


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">.58


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 12"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">MagSafe 64 gr. Defender


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">2275


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">736


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">11.3


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">frag.


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 13"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Remington 125 gr. JHP


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1350


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">506


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">14.3


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">.57


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 14"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Triton 125 gr. JHP


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1440


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">576


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">13.8


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">frag.


    </TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 15"><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 41%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="41%">Triton 115 gr. Quik-Shok


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 13%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="13%">1425


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">519


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">9.0


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">3-frag.


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    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 12%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="12%">533


    </TD><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; WIDTH: 17%; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt" vAlign=top width="17%">11.5


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    <O:p></O:p>
     

    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009

  3. frank_drebin

    frank_drebin 1-man flash mob

    4,884
    37
    Jan 15, 2009
    Yet this didn't seem to happen.....
    I researched the 357sig cartridge extensively when I was choosing my Carry gun. I saw the charts, media tests, etc... That's why I am asking the question now. What happened here?
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  4. Mrs_Esterhouse

    Mrs_Esterhouse

    406
    0
    Jul 19, 2008
    Atlanta, GA
    I think the old man's theory on 'too much speed' is completely wrong. From what I've seen in ballistic tests, too much speed tends to overexpand bullets to the point of fragmentation. It's easy to frag a bullet out of a 9x25dillon; most are not engineered for that speed.

    You be the judge as to what's best:

    http://stevespages.com/page8f357sig.html
     
  5. IndyGunFreak

    IndyGunFreak

    25,800
    1,059
    Jan 26, 2001
    Indiana
    It doesn't really matter about the guys experience. You can find similar stories with almost any JHP in any caliber. If you like the .357sig, carry it. Don't worry about someone elses experience with it.

    IGF
     
  6. Clem Eastwood

    Clem Eastwood

    1,667
    0
    Mar 7, 2004
    DFW, TX
    the question is what platform was he shooting it out of? TX DPS with their SIG P226s have had no problem with it. if he was shooting it out of a short barrel it is vary likely it didnt get into its velocity window, which would explain why it didnt expand. Dallas PD shoot RA9T as their standard load in their issued P226 9mms, but if the officer buys their own p226 in .357 SIG they are issued RA357SIGT. They havent had a problem with their loads expanding either.
     
  7. PersonOfInterest

    PersonOfInterest

    631
    0
    Dec 17, 2008
    Australia
    Ive shot dead in excess of 40 to 50 animals with the 357sig so far using gold dots and 124gn XTP's made by hornady - ive had quite a few exit bodies but they all left a nice hole - minumum hole was about 2" biggest was just over 3" - ive shot them at 15 yards, 50 yards and 70 yards.
    Minumum weight of animals was about 130lbs all the way upto 180lbs.

    Not doubting his story - but what does it mean? did it stop the attack?
    i can tell you something about slow and heavy - about 90% of animals ive shot with say 230gn .45 JHP slugs had exit holes that matched the size of the projectile - only ever had a few that got some expansion (i use that term loosely) i can also atest to the friend i knew who was shot dead with a .45 230gn SXT - his exit wounds where .45cal and he lived for 2 minutes after being shot and was NOT incapacitated.

    Fast projectiles like the 125gn expand most of the time - seen it in living things more times than i can remember - what happened in the case your referring to is pretty uncommon - no big deal - but fact is in slow moving heavy projectiles its the norm.
     
  8. happyguy

    happyguy Man, I'm Pretty

    It happens with every caliber. Not every individual bullet will expand. It has always been this way and probably will continue for the foreseeable future.

    Keep shooting until the threat is gone. If you are using good ammo some of them will expand and if you hit something vital it probably won't matter much.

    Regards,
    Happyguy :)
     
  9. frank_drebin

    frank_drebin 1-man flash mob

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    Great link, thanks. I tend to agree that this round is probably much more sensitive to underexpansion due to low velocity since the bullets were designed to hit in the 1200-1300fps range.

    It was a Glock 32 I believe.


    It definitely stopped the attack. The round traveled quite a long ways through the body before exiting. My biggest concern is with over-penetration itself and the increased possibility of collateral damage. I am wondering if the powrball round might bot be worth a 2nd look for the short barrel of my G33. I went heavy with 147gr but I wonder if lighter would be better out of the compact G33 I am carrying.
     
  10. mclaren

    mclaren

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    The officer you spoke to said that based on the exit wound the bullet never expanded. Was a projectile ever recovered? I have expanded a 125 GD from my G33. It's not quite as dramatic as the picture above. I carry 124 XTP's but trust them equally with the GD. If the wound channel was so long maybe there was a 2 liter shaped void of bloody mush half way between the entry and exit. Maybe it was slowed enough by the time it came out that it didn't bring a softball of flesh with it. Either way, expanded or not the guy was in a world of hurt and is probably relieving himself In a bag for the rest of his life.

    Another good reason to shoot until the threat stops. If the bullet failed to perform why didn't he keep crankin on the G32? Clearly the bullet did the job so why is he *****ing about it. Maybe if a whole mag full failed to slow him down I would go with a 40 cal. But until a human survives that many Gold Dots I will continue to rock my G33 every day, confidently
     
  11. easyg

    easyg

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    Even if it didn't expand, so what?

    A few things are clear:

    1) The round was effective in that it stopped the target.

    2) He didn't kill the target. That means that he didn't hit any major organs or vessels (brain, heart, aorta, etc...).
    And that means that shot placement was less than ideal from an "immediate stop" perspective.

    3) Since he didn't hit anything vital, we must ask ourselves: would an extra .25" in diameter really made much difference?




    A word on over-penetration:

    Of course nobody wants a bullet to exit a target and continue on and harm an innocent bystander.

    With that being said....

    Which is better:

    1) The bullet enters the target's sternum, pierces the sternum, enters the heart and stops somewhere inside the heart muscle itself.

    2) The bullet enters the target's sternum, pierces the sternum, enters the heart, passes completely through the heart muscle and exits the heart, passes completely through the thoracic spine (destroying a vertebral body and damaging the spinal cord), and then exits the target's body, and imbeds about 1" in to the room wall.
     
  12. DRT

    DRT

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    Was the prep wearing heavy clothing? If so, it's likely the ammo (in this case a shallow cavity, bonded hollowpoint) that was the problem, not the caliber.
     
  13. Brucev

    Brucev

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    I have seen a good many large animals (cows, etc.) slaughtered for processing at a local abattoir. I have shot a lot of small and medium game. I have seen a lot of other people shoot small and medium game. Some have been individuals who had much experience in recreational and even competitive shooting. Many first time hunters and even experienced hunters can do odd things when faced with killing a animal, especially when that animal is very close. Subsequent to shooting an animal, people often do odd things, i.e., talking excitedly, forgetting to make their firearm safe, etc.

    The gentleman in the shop who had to use a weapon to defend himself against a criminal assailant. I have not ever had to use and hope I never have to use a weapon in a SD incident. This man faced what no man ever wants to face. In the course of running his business, he may for many years have handled a variety of firearms. This does not mean that he would necessarily have had any experience in dealing with a SD incident. Perhaps he did not continue to fire because the criminal ceased to be a threat. That in itself would show remarkable self-control and good judgment.

    As regards the lack of expansion, it would be interesting to know what was the bullet weight and manufacturer of the round he fired. Just because a round is loaded with a JHP bullet is no guarantee that that will expand. If he was using some sort of basic JHP load, it may simply be that the lack of expansion was due to a bullet design that was not very well thought out.
     
  14. triggerjerk

    triggerjerk

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    Sorry to hear about your friend!
    Do you mind me asking where the round struck?
     
  15. frank_drebin

    frank_drebin 1-man flash mob

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    Unfortunately, this was not a good shoot and the the man that was shot is a "victim" rather than an assailant. The story itself is actually more bizarre than the round not expanding.
     
  16. I think with just the few responses you have got here is a testament to the reality of ballistics. Marksmanship is so very key in any situation, especially when using 9mm and above in terms of firepower. I have heard of thousands (read and word of mouth) of accounts of bullets doing the very very unexpected in the most ideal circumstances.

    There are just to many variables when you realize what a small piece of lead and copper can do flying at variable speeds when it hits something like a body that is made up of different densities of matter at different places depending on angles and deflections of angles after the enitial first hit. It can get rediculous in terms of probabilities and chance. When friends of mine were going through the police academy they were given many real life situations involving officer involved shootings. One (I think he was a Highway Patrolman) law enforcement officer was shot in the rist with a .25 caliber round it deflected off the curved part of one of his wrist bones and traveled up his arm (no doubt being held inside by his muscleature and tendons) again deflecting off his upper arm bone and bouncing at a downward angle through his torso and ending up in his heart. That killed him in a few seconds.

    Minor calibers are the worst in my opinion to get hit with, because the unpredictable nature of the size and speed. Major calibers can do the same in given circumstances, but because of the more direct path they offer, with good marksmanship one can cut back on the "improbability factor" by aiming and hitting on or near vital organs with fatal results. Just something to ponder I guess, and a reminder to TRAIN, TRAIN, PRACTICE, AND PRACTICE SOME MORE!!!!
     
  17. unit1069

    unit1069

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    One incident of a round that did not expand is not an acceptable group from which to draw any conclusions.
     
  18. unit1069

    unit1069

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    Do you have a link to the full story or can you tell us about it?
     
  19. JBP55

    JBP55

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    Louisiana
    Best answer.
     
  20. frank_drebin

    frank_drebin 1-man flash mob

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    I agree with this statement in full. However, The fact is most people will never fire a shot in a defensive situation. If they do the single incident will most likely be the lone encounter they will have. If we train for the "one time" shouldn't we make sure we are carrying the best ammo for the firearm we have chosen? If a given 357 sig round in a gun very similar to the one I carry failed to perform as expected the one time the owner felt as if he needed it then wouldn't I want to find the one that will perform best or at least have the best chance of performing as designed? I want a round that will stop the attack without endangering those behind the assailant. If I have chosen poorly I will correct that mistake no matter what it takes.