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25 yard shot?

5K views 37 replies 24 participants last post by  CDR_Glock 
#1 ·
If you had to make a head shot at 25 yards (a rare scenario, but conceivable) with your carry pistol, could you? What are your best tips on training to confidently have that ability?

Me, I could at 10 yards, but 25 gets really hard. Looking for how to improve longer range pistol accuracy (G26 and G29).
 
#2 ·
Vickers had us shooting at 115 yrds in a class, couple years back. I fell out on an 8 inch plate at 75 yrds, 2 made the 100 yrd shots and no one, except Larry made the 115 yrd shots...and he did it sereral times, almost looked easy! I had never practiced that far prior, now I do. long range with a handgun is all about the trigger. Any trigger exercise will help, ie balance a round on the front sight(dry fire) and pull the trigger w/o dropping the round. Chase the dot drill is another helpful drill as well as EVERY time you fire a shot, you should be able to tell me exactly what your sight pic looked like the whole time...then master follow thru..and ya got it. 75 yrds is pretty attainable in a 6 inch group.
 
#5 ·
Consider that is a 4" circle, the viable head shot, is a very tough shot, made even harder by stress.
At a recent match we put a 10" plate out at 35yds. It required 6 hits, alternating between two idpa targets @ 10yds, so a total of 12rds scored. Most of the 75 shooter ran out of ammo trying to connect with the plate 6x a 35yds. Most will miss a head shot at 10yd in a hurry. For me, 15yds is my limit for that 4" circle at speed & even then I may just miss that more than once. I can make a 25yd head shot, just not 100% of the time at speed.
Only way to improve long distance shooting is shoot long distance. Every error in technique is exacerbated past 15yds or so. When I do get to practice, I like to start with slow fire 25yd groups. This tells me what I am doing well or wrong that day. Good days I can hold 2", but it is slow fire.
 
#6 ·
Shoot matches. The timer and your ego are NOT the same stressors as a life and death scenario, but they are stress inoculation to some degree and they do help. If you do not want to shoot competition, then at least book some time on a SIM and ask the operator to run the further shots they have. The SIM I use has some 50+ yard head shots. I can practice with Laser and then go to my live fire pistol. I employ voice and cover when running the SIM.

"Carry pistol" is a key concept. I shoot 20-30K rounds a year with 5" 9mms, with fiber optic sights and better triggers. So when I hit the range for practice, the dot drill gets shot first with the small 9mm carry gun I have with me. I will also run a scrambler drill with it at 20 yards. I work hard to make sure my fundamentals are kept in shape regardless of whether it is the 6 months of hunting season or the 6 months of competition season.

I have a few times come across pistols that I could not hold a group well enough at 25 yards and so I sold the pistols. One was a .45 DA/SA, one a G29 and the other a G23. I really tried with the G23, but we just we not made for each other. I have a 3" .45 I carry with +P 200 grain JHPs that I can put a magazine into 3" at 25 yards and is one of the best I own. If a particular pistol does not work out for you and others do, no shame in selling or swapping it out for one you shoot better.

One last point...vision is HUGE in shooting iron sighted pistols. As we age, we have to keep up with our skills, and potentially our aids, in order to maintain the same accuracy level. Granted, we will lose some speed as we age, not much can be done there except to be more physically fit.
 
#7 ·
Practical shooting vision is about developing the ability to bring things into your conscious mind in the present tense. Everything in your gaze is going into your mind, but the vast majority of it remains in the unconscious.

I've lost substantial mechanical vision since I started shooting, but my ability to observe irons and other things in short periods of time has greatly increased, in spite of the vision loss.

The ability to observe dry and live practice is what drives most of your mechanical development. Try shooting some slow fire groups, and allow yourself to become extremely aware of which hits are good and which aren't. You will see that it's primarily the keenness of awareness that makes the good shots good.

Same with shooting at a higher rate of speed. The limitations are mostly perceptual. And it's perception that allows you to see where mechanical improvements could be made... to allow you to see more.
 
#8 ·
It's my first shot whenever I go to the range. I can make it easily.

To be fair, I almost treat that shot as a "trick" of sorts.

If you can get up at 10 feet and shoot the same hole over and over and over again, you can without a doubt back up to 25 yards and take a headshot.

Sometimes, I even think the up close shots are harder, because the head on a target is a defined area, instead of shooting at a spot of black inside of an all black target.
 
#15 ·
If you can get up at 10 feet and shoot the same hole over and over and over again, you can without a doubt back up to 25 yards and take a headshot.

Sometimes, I even think the up close shots are harder, because the head on a target is a defined area, instead of shooting at a spot of black inside of an all black target.
I have to disagree with this, at least for the gen pop. A lot of guys can make any 10ft shot needed, but push that to even 15yds, it all falls apart. Hitting the same hole at 10ft is childs play for even many novice shooters. The gun isn't moving much. 25yds waaaay diff. If that were true, then 90% of the shooters at that match aforementioned would not have spent 24rds trying to get 6 hits on a 10" plate @ 35yds.:headscratch:
 
#10 ·
Yes. If you could not hit at 25 yards you would not qualify in the Agency I am leaving, and after several remedials, they would ask you to find another job.
 
#12 ·
At 25 yards, I think you would see the difference between a Polymer frame and a steel frame, on the same shooter (YOU).

Try this experiment sometimes when you've got access to both.
The material of my frame affects whether or not I can apply the fundamentals of marksmanship?

Which is better? My sigs and glocks are both no issue.
 
#14 ·
Your body reflexes do amazing things every day. Years ago, I had free shooting out in the country and hitting a paper plate at 100 yards was no problem. Usually, it was 5 hits and one near miss. One technique was to drop one low, then adjust fire the next one. Like Babe Ruth said, it's all fifty percent half mental. of course, a lethal encounter is a different ball game.
 
#20 ·
I learned along time ago what I can do is not what comes natural to others. The core of teaching/instructing is getting the student there, regardless of their challenges. What comes easy to some is diff for others. If it were easy, we would all be master shooters & LEO wouldn't miss 75% of the time.
 
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#24 ·
With my carry gun? Which one? My off-duty DAO j-frame? No, I cannot make a headshot, every time; not even most of the time. My duty G22, still not every time, but a hell of lot more regularly with the 4.5" barrel and 5.5 lbs trigger vs the 1.875" barrel and heavy (over 10 lbs) trigger of the 442.
 
#25 ·
A head shot is a very low percentage shot. They are ill advised for a sack full of reasons, despite the TV and internet popularity. 25 yards is pushing it with a pistol. It would have to be an extremely life or death situation, in which case it would be even more difficult.
A rifle would be my first choice at that distance. A better target would also be preferred.
 
#26 ·
Two thoughts: first, when you get to the point where you're seriously looking at 25 yard head shots as a regular thing, look at upgrading equipment. Red dot sights are not just for rifles. (They don't do a thing for your trigger control, but if you're seriously looking at 25 yard head shots as a regular thing, you should have that down.)
Second, tactics. Most gun people look at the head shot as one and done. Maybe an acceptable backstop and a burst of 5 is the tool you seek? After all, what is it we're actually trying to accomplish?
 
#27 ·
If someone asked me how to assess and develop their handgun skills for being able to deliver an accurate, precision shot using their handgun at some of the common target shooting distances, the first thing I'd ask them would be how well they could shoot a 25yd bullseye target (2 & 1-handed, unsupported)

The first thing they did to us on the first morning of my original firearms instructor school was have us complete a standard course-of-fire, out to 25yds, using a standard bullseye target. Everyone was told that if they couldn't produce a qualifying score by the end of lunch, they'd be sent back to their agencies that afternoon without being allowed to attend the rest of the class.

Then again, in a LE firearms instructor update class, a few years before I retired, all the instructors were told to complete a similar, scored common bullseye course-of-fire, but were given until the last day of the class to pass it, and some other skills tests. I remember being told that one firearms instructor for another agency didn't receive a certificate at the end of the class because he'd failed to complete at least one of the standard skills tests.

A couple of the skills assessment courses-of-fire we had to complete included shooting targets out to 50yds (scoring boxes in one version of the ubiquitous silhouette training target). The first drill was run normally, and the next one was run after having both the front and rear sights covered with black electrician's tape (applied wider than the sights). Some of the newer instructors were surprised when they discovered they could still obtain passing scores with covered sights, and made good hits out to 50yds.

Now, that's just the basic skills development and assessment ...

I remember seeing a dismaying number of people think they were being asked to do something unfairly difficult when told to shoot the black rings of the standard bullseye target ... at 11yds.

I often find myself missing the days when cops were required to learn to accurately shoot DA revolvers.
 
#28 ·
The wisdom of attempting head shots in any self-defense situation aside:

Back in the 1970s I was preparing a military shooting team for a pistol competition. The course of fire involved shooting at 25, 15 and 7 yards. For two weeks we shot that course of fire from 100, 50 and 25 yards. These were top shooters and the first few times firing the course at longer distances were pretty rough, but over time the scores rose to acceptable levels. A week before the competition we shot the course of fire at the correct distances. The results were astounding. The guys were shooting near perfect scores and reported that the targets looked huge. Instead of shooting for 4" rings they were shooting for the 1" Xs in the center of those rings.

To shoot with precision at distance requires correct training. Get out of your comfort zone avoiding shooting easy distances when practicing. Understand that to get better involves struggle and failures. Dedicate yourself to improving your fundamentals. Aim small, miss small. It really is that simple, not easy, but that simple.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Making the shot:

Yes. It's not that hard. If you understand basic grip and trigger control, you can shoot 25 yard (and longer) head shots all day long.

Last class I was in, we had a competition where each student fired their first shot of the day at a 5"x 5" sticker on a target at 25 yards - I won a "Glock Instructor" pelican case for hitting closest to center, but plenty of people were close enough to have made a head shot.

Doing it in an emergency or a gunfight? Much, much less likely, but if you can't do it on the range, then it's definitely "no."
 
#35 ·
Major Cartes was my Commander when I fired on the Berlin LsClerc team. I did combat rifle the first year (M14) and Light Machine gun the second year. (M 60) The Major had won matches like the NATO Championship :dancing::dancing:Incidently one of the pistol members the second year was Captain Norman Schwarzkopf.
 
#36 ·
Here is where the Red Dot sight makes a major difference. We have a Detective Sergeant who introduced me to one after I watched him make 50 meter shots. I did the same after he was kind enough to run me through the drills he had developed. I was surprised my Glock 17 in a DeSantis Speed Scabbard is very comfortable to carry.
 
#37 ·
When I first started shooting I felt pretty good about this because all I ever shot was the steel plates at 25yds. I'd hit five of six on a regular basis. Now, not so much. I've laid off pistol training for a few years because I bought a new rifle that was more "fun." I agree with what has been said earlier: aim small, miss small. I'm back on the plate rack...
 
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