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200 vs 220 hardcast

Discussion in '10mm Reloading Forum' started by ctious, Jun 4, 2012.

  1. ctious

    ctious

    554
    1
    Dec 12, 2011
    I am still torn on the two. Please guys let me know what way to go.

    Rimrock for 220 gr

    Or

    Bluetooth 200 gr.

    For the money the 220s are the way to go. Has anyone shot anything with them?
     
  2. Yondering

    Yondering

    564
    0
    Dec 3, 2011
    That truncated cone 220gr bullet design takes up a lot of case capacity, in a bullet weight where case capacity is already at a premium.

    I'd go for the 200gr personally, out of those two bullets.
     


  3. Meathead9

    Meathead9

    1,207
    3
    Aug 23, 2009
    The PRK
    I like the Bear Tooth 200gr WFNGC's. I have 2 nice loads for that bullet, one @ 1250fps & one @ 1360fps (6" G20LS).
     
  4. ctious

    ctious

    554
    1
    Dec 12, 2011
    Just came across freindswoodsbullets they look nice the price is great. Hardness of 18. What u guys think? They have a 180 that looks good and the 220. Wish they had a 200.
     
  5. Jitterbug

    Jitterbug

    870
    5
    Aug 27, 2002
  6. Yondering

    Yondering

    564
    0
    Dec 3, 2011
    Again, that 220 (and the 180) is a TC design. It's not a hunting bullet either; look at the small meplat and rounded nose. That's a plinking/target bullet. If that's what you're looking for, it won't much matter which bullet you choose.
     
  7. ctious

    ctious

    554
    1
    Dec 12, 2011
    Site says flat point.
     
  8. ctious

    ctious

    554
    1
    Dec 12, 2011
    Called beartooth. They are 3 weeks behind. That sucks.
     
  9. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    428
    0
    Sep 7, 2010
    PRK (Kalifornia)
    (Rimrock bullets)
    The points are flat, but the picture is a TC (which is a "FP", technically). They also use the exact same stock photo for both weights of their "FP's". If they are both of the same design, the 220 will be about 23% longer. That's a lot of case capacity gone. This causes several issues. Larger bullets, while they have their purpose, shoot a much less flat trajectory (shorter accuracy range), are capable of less energy (exponential loss of case capacity, coupled with mass), narrows your powder choices, and handicaps versatility.

    As far as "economic picture" is concerned, comparing the 180 to the 220, you'll have to calculate the additional cost for the heavier bullet, with about a 25% reduction of the powder charge (SWAG). The bullet cost difference is $16/500, which will be significantly more costly than the powder offset. Essentially, free powder for a more powerful, flatter shooting, longer accuracy round, switching from the 220 to 180, with fewer seating and chamber fitment issues. YMMV

    Yondering is correct. These are target rounds. Only effective for punching small holes, no matter the target.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
  10. ctious

    ctious

    554
    1
    Dec 12, 2011
    I should just start casting my own. Cost is more than I pay for xtps.

    How cheap can u get a mold for? also a sizer and lube. I have a pot already.
     
  11. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    428
    0
    Sep 7, 2010
    PRK (Kalifornia)
    Also, looking at the Beartooth bullet, it's a RNFPGC, expensive, and not a bullet designed for 10mm. That's all I found in 10mm on their sight. As stated in their description, it's designed for the .38-40, which is very different than a 10mm. They only share a bore diameter. I load 38-40, which is essentially a .44 mag size cartridge (which I use to make 38-40), necked down to 10mm. Really cool with very powerful potential, but hardly interchangeable. The Beartooth bullet may have stability issues at much slower velocities, shorter barrels, and rifling/twist rate designs. Also, the "Nose to crimp" length (.280") won't fit in a Glock magazine without compromising the shoulder.
     
  12. LASTRESORT20

    LASTRESORT20 LongTerm-Guy

    18,566
    26,261
    Aug 10, 2010
    NC

    This ^^^
     
  13. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    428
    0
    Sep 7, 2010
    PRK (Kalifornia)
    Lee molds and sizers are less than $20 each per caliber (Midway, Cabela's, etc.). Suggesting lube types and methods is like opening a Ford vs. Chevy discussion. Lubri-sizers are a significant initial purchase for a system, then for caliber/type parts. Not practical or cost effective, unless you will be doing a LOT of bullets. The easiest and least expensive (by far) is the Lee sizer and LLA (Lee Liquid Alox, tumble lube) system. There are ways to make this work very well, as long as you don't follow the instructions. If you go the LLA route, be sure to get "TL" molds. If you don't go with LLA or the lubri-sizer route, you'll be limited to "pan" and/or "cookie cutter" methods. I have a lubri-sizer, but tend to use other methods a lot more often, including all I mentioned above. I cast a couple thousand rounds a month, in about a dozen calibers/weights.
     
  14. Meathead9

    Meathead9

    1,207
    3
    Aug 23, 2009
    The PRK
    The Bear Tooth 200gr 10mm bullet is a WFNGC, with a meplat width of .31. Double Tap's 10mm 200gr WFNGC appears to be identical, only difference being meplat width (.32). I have loaded DT's 200gr WFNGC @ 1.250-1.260 with no feeding problems, and no signs of instability.
     
  15. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    428
    0
    Sep 7, 2010
    PRK (Kalifornia)
    Just repeated what they had on the sight about the bullet. I haven't used them myself. Unless they have others not listed, what I saw, and what they described, won't work well at all with a 10mm auto. The problem I mentioned about length had nothing to do with feeding, but with actually fitting into the mag. With a N-C length of .280", the best you could do would be about 1.265, with a MINIMUM length case (.985"), the MAX length I was able to reliably feed in and out of several G20 mags. Never had a problem with any chambering, once staged in the mag. This means the bullets are being seated even deeper than the designer recommends, or engineered. I dunno. Still, a lot of case capacity loss, and more lead to push out (read: exponential pressure increase with diminishing results). Add to that, a GC isn't required nor desired at the velocities we are discussing, and ESPECIALLY in a hammer-forged bore.

    Don't get me wrong, I LOVE big, heavy bullets. Some just aren't meant to be with some calibers. I settled on 180 gr. 10mm bullets, of just about every design, because 200+ gr. bullets means giving up 100-200 ft/lb KE at similar pressures. If you're OK with that, more power to ya.
     
  16. Yondering

    Yondering

    564
    0
    Dec 3, 2011
    PM sent, I might be able to help.
     
  17. Meathead9

    Meathead9

    1,207
    3
    Aug 23, 2009
    The PRK
    The 200gr WFNGC is about the same length as the 180gr XTP, so if theyre seated at the same OAL, they should have the same amount of available case volume. I have gotten them to average as high as 1416fps (not a safe load), but have since settled at 1360fps. Double Tap's factory loaded 200gr WFNGC has an OAL from 1.243-1.245. Also, the gas check may not be necessary @ pistol velocities, but I don't see how it could hurt. No exposed lead at the base for reduced smoke, and a more uniform base should aid in accuracy & consistency. I'm not trying to argue, so please don't take it that way, I'm just really interested in this discussion.
     
  18. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    428
    0
    Sep 7, 2010
    PRK (Kalifornia)
    No worries. I don't care to argue, either. Discussion is good, even if we don't agree.

    1.245" is too short for that long bullet. Why they've done that, doesn't make sense. Intentionally giving up case capacity, when it's needed most, makes no sense. I'd have to see a comparison of the 200 gr. WFNGC next to a 180 gr. XTP to believe they are the same length. The XTP's are pure lead, and although with a copper jacket, as stout as it is, would surely be significantly shorter than a hard lead alloy bullet (~85% lead, at best) of 20 more grains. The HP cavity isn't that much, and doesn't make the difference of the mass loss of the jacket. I dunno. I'm not from Missouri (although I was just talking with a friend from there), but you'll have to show me. I've seen a lot, but I haven't seen it all. Cramming so many objectives into a single cartridge is proving very challenging. Some of the results I'm getting are stellar, but is requiring a lot of custom component work. Very expensive and time consuming. Not that I'm complaining, I haven't had this much fun with developing a round in years!
     
  19. highxj

    highxj

    15
    1
    Sep 23, 2010
    I don't have any XTPs, but if it makes any difference the DT 200 WFN is within a few thou of being the same length as the Gold Dot 180.

    Also, the nose to crimp groove length as listed on BT's site for the 10mm bullet has no significance whatsoever when loaded in an auto cartridge.
     
  20. Meathead9

    Meathead9

    1,207
    3
    Aug 23, 2009
    The PRK
    I just found the thread where we collectively came up with a list of 10mm bullet length data. I said they were about the same length, but I may have exaggerated a little (.640 vs .624). Here's the list of bullet lengths copied from that thread:

    ________________________________________________________

    10mm Bullet Lengths------------------

    Barnes 125gr HP pure copper bullet .624”
    Barnes 140gr HP pure copper bullet .682"
    Barnes 155gr HP pure copper bullet .732"

    Bear Creek 180gr LTC - 0.628"

    DoubleTap 200gr WFNGC - 0.640"
    DoubleTap 230gr LeadCast gaschecked .725”

    Hornady 155 XTP .555 “
    Hornady 180 XTP .624 “
    Hornady 180 HAP .624 “
    Hornady 180 FMJ .615”
    Hornady 200 XTP .685 “
    Hornady 200 HAP .680”
    Hornady 200 FMJ .660”

    IMI Bullets ?

    Magtech BU40A 180gr JHP------ 0.63” http://www.magtechammunition.com/sitepages/pid103.php
    Magtech BU40B 180gr FMJ-Flat- 0.61”
    Magtech BU40C 160gr LSWC ---- 0.62”
    Magtech BU40E 155gr JHP GOLD- 0.55”
    Magtech BU40SC 130gr SCHP---- 0.63" Solid Copper Hollow Point

    Montana Gold 155 FMJ .524 https://www.montanagoldbullet.com/pricelist.html
    Montana Gold 155 JHP .555
    Montana Gold 165 FMJ .546
    Montana Gold 165 CMJ .550
    Montana Gold 165 JHP .580
    Montana Gold 180 FMJ 0.565
    Montana Gold 180 CMJ 0.586
    Montana Gold 180 JHP: 0.618"
    Montana Gold 200 CMJ 0.650

    Nosler 135 JHP .494 Inch
    Nosler 150 JHP .535 “
    Nosler 180 JHP .620"
    Nosler 200 JHP .674" “

    Power Bond 165 FP Power Bond- Jacked or Plated ? http://powerbondbullets.com/products.html
    Power Bond 165 HP
    Power Bond 180 FP 0.585"
    Power Bond 180 HP

    Precision Delta Solid 165gr Jacketed or Plated? http://www.precisiondelta.com/
    Precision Delta Solid 180gr .595 "
    Precision Delta Solid 200gr

    PRVI 180gr FMJ - 0.594"

    Ranier 135gr RN .478 Plated Bullets http://www.rainierballistics.com/mainframe.htm
    Ranier 155 FP .541
    Ranier 165 FP .565
    Ranier 16 5RNFP .567
    Ranier 180 FP .597
    Ranier 180 RNFP .604
    Ranier 180 HP .620

    Remington 155gr JHP
    Remington 165gr JHP .574

    Sierra 135 JHP .501"
    Sierra 150 JHP .? ? ?
    Sierra 165 JHP .587"
    Sierra 180 JHP .634"

    Speer #4399 155gr TMJ .530"
    Speer #4410 165gr TMJ .555"
    Speer #4402 180gr TMJ .600"

    Speer #4400 155gr GDHP .546"
    Speer #4397 165gr GDHP .580"
    Speer #4406 180gr GDHP .630"
    Speer #4401 180gr GDHP Short Barrel.630" ( slower velocity for expansion)

    Winchester 155gr Silvertip HP

    XTREME 155gr RNFP .512 inch http://xtremebullets.com/better.htm
    XTREME 165gr RNFP
    XTREME 180gr RNFP
    XTREME 200gr RNFP
    XTREME 220gr RNFP


    Zero 180gr JHP - 0.614" http://www.rozedist.com/

    CAST BULLETS
    Bullet - Total Length (Length Inside case)
    ==================================
    Aardvark 155 SWC - .585" (.332")
    Mihec 160 HP - .555" (.315")
    Mihec 220 WFN - .708" (.425")
    Lee 175 TC - .585" (.365")

    Lyman 156gr Devastator .584"
    Lyman 175gr TCBB .609"
    RCBS 175gr TCSWC .616"

    XTREME 155gr SWC ( semi wad cutter)
    XTREME 180gr FP Flat Point
    XTREME 200gr FP Flat Point

    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012