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Discussion in 'The 10 Ring' started by Burien, Mar 29, 2011.
That is definitely "When to stop pushing the envelope?"
Wanna kill these ads? We can help!
Correct Sir! Good thing Star Line brass is such high quality, no splits, just flex
Burien, that was ment for GoFastMan, he has a post in the reloading section by that title!
Oh come on! you can go a little farther
An experience from a few months ago.
This might look like an overpressure......
Good Lord, man!
A part of me sees this and says, I'm amazed no one was killed or injured. The other part says, wow! It's amazing what a gun can take without killing or injuring someone.
Good luck, and be safe!
Please elaborate on some of the details...
Was this Factory Double Tap? Handloads?
What was the? Powder-type? weight? Bullet-type? weight?
What gun? Barrel-type? length? Was there damage to the gun?
Trying to get a feel for your experience I'm sure others would like to know also...
The post was just a teaser (sorry). Things aren't always as they seem, and especially so in this case. It "might" look like an overpressure load, but it wasn't.
They were handloads (not "reloads", so to speak, all new components). The only damage was the 2 cases. There would have been only 1, except the condition wasn't realized until after the second was fired. The recoil and report was no more than expected, for the light rounds.
New DT/McNett brass
9.5, 10.0 gr. BD, respectively
All single stage loaded, hand weighed and measured.
Fired single shot, no mag.
Both rounds were FTE. The first cleared when the slide was cycled. The second never came out of battery, and required some force to open the action.
Glock 20, Gen3, about 2 years old (purchased new, by me)
24# ISMI spring, LWD SS rod.
No chronograph. Normally I would have, but just didn't this time.
This is a typical primary load progression when I use a new lot of any major component (case/powder), and proved a very effective method in this case. Been developing loads for over 30 years, so this was just old-hat habit. I've had/seen numerous similar/worse results over the years, for various reasons.
I bought a large lot of new brass from Midway to replace my tiring stock of 10mm brass (Starline was out of stock). This brass was RECALLED nearly a year before, but still sold to me by Midway early February 2012. After investigating the incident, brass failure was the only remaining possibility. I called DT, and they immediately took the issue seriously. Talked to them on a Thursday and the next Monday, UPS arrived with replacement brass (plus some), and a return label. Can't beat that for customer service. Replacement brass is "Double Tap" headstamp, and the recall applies only to the "McNett" headstamp. He wouldn't say who the brass supplier was, but said it wasn't Starline (they switched for this one lot, for some reason). The new Double Tap headstamp brass is fine, and handles full/nuke loads just fine in the Glock (multiple barrel config's) and my other 10mm's. High quality brass, this time. As good as the R-P I have been using through about 20 reloads.
The remaining loaded rounds (with progressively higher charges) have been disassembled and inspected. No anomalies.
I also got a REALLY good impression of the LWD chamber support. Although the cases were stretched out to 1.002", well beyond the .995" chamber depth, the bulge at the ramp was not above the case web. This is one of the "fullest" chamber support of all the big autos I've seen, and better than other 10mm autoloaders I've tested. My RBH has better support, but it's a revolver. This may have gone unnoticed had I tested these rounds in the BH, as the chamber and headspace is VERY tight, with minimal chamber-breach gap. This probably would have blown out with the OEM Glock barrel. The LWD chamber remains unchanged from new, as measured by me, after this incident and thousands of rounds through it, before and after. I was skeptical of the LWD barrel at first, but this and other personal experiences with it have bolstered my confidence in them (there will be others in my future). Bar-Sto is good, and KKM has been disappointing and overrated, in my experience.
Man talk about being a killjoy!
I can now see days on end trying to figure out an amateur metallurgy test setup for each new batch of brass. Anybody send their brass to a lab?
In 4 decades of loading I have never seen anything like that, I must be luckier than I thought I was.
Thanks a lot for the heads up.
dm1906, thanks for that great write up about the details. To have that happen in an aftermarket barrel and recoil spring of that weight is just absurd.
In all my years (since March 1990 for 10mm) of using Blue Dot, I never ever had an experience like that from any of my S&W10xx series or my Glock 29 factory barrel either.
The reason I mention this, is beacuse I handload my Hornady 200XTP's over 10.5 grains of Blue Dot CCI 300 or 350 LP, which pushes them to 1180-1200 fps from the 5" barrel S&W1006 and 1140-1160 fps from the G-29.
To say that it was Brass related might be an understatement! I know that Star line is softer than most Factory makes, but I have never experienced a "Smiled Brass". I did have a primer come out on a used FC brass that when I primed it, it when in very easy and on another recent loading with Long Shot powder, I had a primer leak some soot which was also expected with the ease of priming the casing.
I use some of the DT brass for my 9x25Dillon projects but it is marked Double Tap. However I do have some brass which is marked McNett so I'll have to do some testing of those to insure their quality is proper for the loadings or need to be tossed out.
Good habits is the best laboratory. Never assume what you get is the same as what you had, even within the same name brands. In my case with this incident, had it been a full-on KB!, it wouldn't have been much more, if any, eventful. More alarming, perhaps, but not necessarily more eventful or dangerous. New loads get the full treatment. Spectra gloves, eye and face protection (ballistic hearing and eye protection is standard, in any case, all the time), and no mag. When a case fails on these, it will blow out the bottom (unsupported or least support at the ramp). With a mag in place, cartridges or not, the gasses build until something gives. This is usually the mag latch, mag, followed by the sides of the frame. An empty grip gives the gasses a path to exit quickly, almost always enough to prevent a pressure build, and pistol damage. Revolvers and single shots aren't so forgiving. They just blow apart. Ideally, we should be testing with a machine rest. I've never had one (although it's been on my list for 20+ years).
I've seen this happen a few times over the years. Most of them were new common name brands. The first was .41 mag, which resulted in separated case heads on Federal factory rounds. My Model 57 handled it fine, and has been fine since, after several thousand rounds. It did make a trip to S&W for inspection after that, though. The next was a bunch of "Eastern Block" 7.62x39 new brass. One crack and two blow-outs and I tossed the hole lot of 2500 (after disassembling 500+ rounds....not fun).
I use a lot of Blue Dot, and love it. CCI 350's, also a favorite. And, they do get along, despite the misinformation repeated by the misinformed.
For a long time I've heard about Starline being "soft", or whatever, but have yet to see evidence of it. The brass is as resilient, if not more, than any other mainstream brand. I pressure-check all the rounds during development (Waters' method, since before I knew what that was), and continuously throw routine rounds for measurement. Waiting for primers to blow out is waiting too long, and a "little" gas leakage is too much. I build some "nukes", but never cross the line. Velocity and accuracy can be had without excessive pressure. I build my own hunting rounds, hand and long guns. Hunting in CA limits my options, but I live within the laws.... Laws of science and of the land. I've managed to safely get a 155 gr. Tac-XP at 1500+ in the 6.5" BH, and a little less in the G20. I'm not so irresponsible to publish the recipe, as you won't be firing it through my guns. If I published, someone would do it, and blow up their DE (which WILL be the result). It is devastating on target, though.
I always load 1 (and drop the empty mag on semi's) with any new batch. I also inspect the brass on that shot, every single time. I have had spectra gloves on my to do list, maybe time to move them up on the long list of must have's.
But I have to say, your photo's are jarring.
Have you wondered if this incident is related in anyway to the admonishments Alliant has on the .41 Mag use of Bluedot?
Very interesting stuff in any case, thanks again.
Gloves are important. I used leather work gloves before. They are cumbersome (big fingers and small trigger guards, as it is), but what I had. The Spectra's are handy, and perhaps more protective, with leather and ballistic material. They are comfortable to wear, but get hot quickly. Definitely add them to the ASAP list, if you work up and test your own loads (or especially if you test someone else's).
No on Alliant's admonishment. I use a LOT of BD, in several cartridges. I used it with .41M since about 1980, but moved on to 2400 easy enough, even before the warning. They must have changed the formulation at some time, as I was beginning to see frequent inconsistencies with the .41. Big magnums get doses of 2400 or 296 almost exclusively anymore. Much more predictable and consistent results than any other powder. x4227 and R7 get some use on occasion. AA9 and some others are good (and surprisingly popular), but get too finicky with climate/location changes for my interest (the nature of a perfectionist with OCD, I suppose). 231, Unique and Bullseye fill the majority of the high-volume target loads (9, 38, 40, 45x etc.), mostly off-the-shelf published recipes (gongs, paper and steel....why complicate it?). I use other powders, but less frequent and usually with specific loads that require them very specific results. I/we shoot a lot (mostly cadets, rookies and old timers, I have a long/short range at my home), about once a week, more or less, so I load a lot. I have progressive loaders, but do most of it anymore single stage. 500 rounds a week isn't much, spread out over the week. I have the time and still enjoy it, so why not.... Each to his/her own.
Man that pic on the right is impressive!
I bet you could reuse that brass, just seat a small primer directly in the flash hole! lol.
For the record, I think the problems we have been hearing about with the LWD barrels refer to their "new" design, they used to be the best in the biz as far as chamber support went, according to The Late Mudrush.
I think Mudrush was probably right, my "old design" LWD .40 conversion barrel has stellar chamber support.
A small primer would probably fall through that hole. A 209 might fit, with some JB weld. Problem is, the only chamber it will fit into is an OEM Glock (with a little room to spare). It was in pretty tight, and might need a hammer to get it back into that LWD.
I dunno about the LWD barrels, other than what I've seen, used and heard/read about. A small number of what I've heard says problems, but most praise them. What I've seen and use has been stellar. Could be they had an imperfect run on them. I don't know why they would make a change to the chamber, as the ones I've been exposed to feed flawlessly. A friend got one a few months ago, and it appears to be the same as mine. Maybe I'll have to load up one of those McNett's and get a good casting of that chamber for comparison......
McNett headstamp brass, I'll be on the look out, thanks for the info!
Super post! Thanks... Just curious what you didn't like about KKM? I was thinking of picking one up for a new G20 I just purchased.
I'm glad to see you have been using Blue Dot for so long. I just purchased a new G20 and reloading/handloading componants. I chose Blue Dot and Starline brass. But I'm not sure if i should go with CCI 300's or 350's. What is the logic of choosing a mag primer over a std primer?... slower powder = mag primer?
May I ask... why are gloves important relative to working up a load? Just curious. ;-)