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100% Failure Rate for 1st Round of Female Marine Infantry Recruits

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by Big Bird, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. tsmo1066

    tsmo1066 Happy Smiley

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    Like they say, the military is great at training to win the LAST war they fought. The pushup, situp and other standards in the military exist largely (but not exclusively) because they are easy to administer in bulk to large groups of recruits and because 'that's how it has always been done'.

    The battlefield has changed a great deal in the last two decades, however. On an ambush-oriented, asymetrical battlefield and with modern weapons, other attibutes like reaction time and hand-eye coordination are (in my opinion) of equal importance, but the military hasn't caught up yet with the fact that it isn't all about who can bench-press the most anymore.

    Many women have the grit and courage for the job, and can bring attributes to the field that are of at least equal value to raw strength and stamina. History shows that where women have been employed as infantry, they have served well and I think they deserve a shot at serving in that role.
     
  2. Gunhaver

    Gunhaver the wrong hands

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    I don't know how true it is but I've heard many times (mostly from a Navy brother, Navy BIL and Air Force cousin) that women can withstand higher G-force for longer time periods while retaining cognitive skills and physical strength/fine motor skills because of their lower blood volume and relative strength of their circulatory system compared to men. Sounds great. Go with what works and treat military personnel like military equipment. Set a standard and require it to be met in order to do the job. The battle field is no place for affirmative action.
     

  3. The Maggy

    The Maggy

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    What type of injuries? I can't read the full article.

    I went through Infantry OSUT at Ft. Benning and being washed out for an injury is quiet common. It happens to guys too, it's par for the course. You get a recycle or a ticket home depending on the nature of your injury. There is also a point where the medics/ instructors will not let you train.

    Instead of looking at female police officers as an example, how long have we had female firefighters? Have they been able or unable to regularly haul unconscious, borderline obese people out of burning buildings?

    My personal opinion is that if they can pass the same test that is deemed good enough for guys, let them run with the big dogs. That being said, I also feel that the push up/sit up/run pt test is a little dated and is not the best assessment for success in the modern infantry.
     
  4. 427

    427

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    I'm a very weak swimmer. There's no way I'd ever meet the swim requirements to be a SEAL. Should the standards be lowered or waived?

    If I had bad color perception there are some jobs I don't qualify for. Should those requirements be waived?
     
  5. tsmo1066

    tsmo1066 Happy Smiley

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    Swimming is obviously critical for a SEAL. When's the last time you saw an infantryman save his ass in a firefight by dropping and doing 20 pushups, however?

    You are assuming that the current PT standards, standards that ignore critical traits like hand-eye coordination and reaction time, are the be-all and end-all of measuring infantry potential.

    I don't think they are.

    Personally, I feel that the military PT standards are long overdue to be shifted to a system that stresses overall physical conditioning as well as fine motor skills and coordination, rather than just upper body strength and the ability to crank out sit-ups.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  6. 427

    427

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    Hand eye coordination and reaction time doesn't mean anything if they don't have the stamina to complete a forced march for say eight miles with a full load and be ready to fight.

    If I'm a SEAL and I get a waiver for swimming, my awesome hand eye coordination and reaction times don't mean a thing if I drown because of my weak swimming.
     
  7. TKM

    TKM Shiny Member Lifetime Member

    I can probably carry Okie up a ladder in a burning ship. Very few females can get me over a knee-knocker.:upeyes:
     
  8. Peace Warrior

    Peace Warrior Am Yisrael Chai CLM

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    These two wimmens are gonna probably heal up, smarten up, and then join the Navy. :whistling:
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  9. Gino

    Gino Millennium Member

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    Most of the guys that I know that are police, prison guards, or firefighters will acknowledge that women don't excel in those positions. Upper body strength isn't needed on a daily basis, but when it is needed, it is absolutely needed. There is no good substitute for upper body strength when you have to carry someone or when having to lay hands on a struggling, belligerent person.
     
  10. ricklee4570

    ricklee4570

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    They lower the standards for women firefighters and police officers as compared to men.

    Who do you want to come haul you out of a burning building, a male firefighter or some petite woman firefighter?

    I worked with women in the department of corrections as well as in the military and in both cases they were unable to complete the same job functions as the men, so exceptions get made for them.

    To those that are so sure that some women can do the same job, would you put those same women on an NFL pro football team?? No, because no matter how athletic, they can not do the same things as the men can do.

    Hand to hand combat? Remember the female wrestler "Chyna"? She had a body like a man. Everyone talked about how strong and athletic she was. Then she went into a celebrity boxing match with old gray balding out of shape fat Joey Buttefucco and he kicked her butt all over the place. Why?? Because there are differences between men and women and it is just a fact.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  11. Big Bird

    Big Bird NRA Life Member

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    If women are faster and have better motor skills how come they aren't wide receivers in the NFL? How come the men outrun them in the Olympics? Women aren't "faster" than men....

    If you've never served in an infantry capacity you have no idea how physically demanding it is. Try fast roping off a helicopter with 80 lbs of equipment.... Try running a coupe hundred yards with a mortar tube. And as I've always said...I've yet to meet a woman who can take a 58# heat round from the ready rack in a tank. Rotate it 180 degrees with one arm in a confined space, and slam it home in the breech of a tank with the other arm in the space of 3 seconds. My fattest, slowest male soldier in my tank platoon could do that without fail. Is that important? Oh yeah...try fighting a tank with a loader who can't get the job done in a reasonable amount of time (fast is the ONLY reasonable amount of time allowed here) Or one that could pick up and REPLACE an 80# roadwheel by herself. Or apply 320 ft lbs of torque to a hub bolt on the sprocket--there are like 16 on each side...

    Then there's the obstacle course that women can't negotiate because it requires the upper body strength to pull your body up and over things...forget the fact that they aren't even carrying equipment.

    As I've always said--you want to see discrimination? Put an average weight 140# female soldier in a Pugil Stick match with an average weight 180# soldier. 99% of the time go see who get the living crap beat out of them. But women are faster and more agile right? Gimme a break.

    Every fire department that has women on the force has a different set of physical standards for women. Same with the police.

    40% of women fail Marine Corps Boot camp for physical reasons. 16% of men fail for the same reasons.

    At what point do we have to accommodate women in training for infantry roles when we have to put 100 women through the program to find 2 that can hack it? or 5 or even 10? When does the defense needs of the nation and the cost/benefit of training women for combat override our need to use taxpayer dollars to literally buy the most bang for the buck?

    Here's a two combat tour female Marine Captain that has a VERY different view than you on this subject. She has more experience than you and I'd submit a better perspective. Perhaps you would not discount her opinion so casually:

    http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

    Quoted from the article:

    By the fifth month into the deployment, I had muscle atrophy in my thighs that was causing me to constantly trip and my legs to buckle with the slightest grade change. My agility during firefights and mobility on and off vehicles and perimeter walls was seriously hindering my response time and overall capability. It was evident that stress and muscular deterioration was affecting everyone regardless of gender; however, the rate of my deterioration was noticeably faster than that of male Marines and further compounded by gender-specific medical conditions. At the end of the 7-month deployment, and the construction of 18 PBs later, I had lost 17 pounds and was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome (which personally resulted in infertility, but is not a genetic trend in my family), which was brought on by the chemical and physical changes endured during deployment. Regardless of my deteriorating physical stature, I was extremely successful during both of my combat tours, serving beside my infantry brethren and gaining the respect of every unit I supported. Regardless, I can say with 100 percent assurance that despite my accomplishments, there is no way I could endure the physical demands of the infantrymen whom I worked beside as their combat load and constant deployment cycle would leave me facing medical separation long before the option of retirement. I understand that everyone is affected differently; however, I am confident that should the Marine Corps attempt to fully integrate women into the infantry, we as an institution are going to experience a colossal increase in crippling and career-ending medical conditions for females.

    and

    There is a drastic shortage of historical data on female attrition or medical ailments of women who have executed sustained combat operations. This said, we need only to review the statistics from our entry-level schools to realize that there is a significant difference in the physical longevity between male and female Marines. At OCS the attrition rate for female candidates in 2011 was historically low at 40 percent, while the male candidates attrite at a much lower rate of 16 percent. Of candidates who were dropped from training because they were injured or not physically qualified, females were breaking at a much higher rate than males, 14 percent versus 4 percent. The same trends were seen at TBS in 2011; the attrition rate for females was 13 percent versus 5 percent for males, and 5 percent of females were found not physically qualified compared with 1 percent of males. Further, both of these training venues have physical fitness standards that are easier for females; at IOC there is one standard regardless of gender. The attrition rate for males attending IOC in 2011 was 17 percent. Should female Marines ultimately attend IOC, we can expect significantly higher attrition rates and long-term injuries for women.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  12. FLIPPER 348

    FLIPPER 348 Happy Member

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    absolutely not


    The Army caved on this, hopefully the Marines will not.
     
  13. FLIPPER 348

    FLIPPER 348 Happy Member

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    It sure as hell is.


    When your leg gets blown off and you need to be carried out RFN to safety & MEDIVAC your 'buddy' better be up to the task.
     
  14. redbaron007

    redbaron007 Some Dude Lifetime Member

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    SWMO
    Your assumption that all women have these traits and all men don't, is substantially flawed. So, therefore, your argument is void.

    :wavey:

    red
     
  15. G36's Rule

    G36's Rule Senior Member

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    I would like to see you support your claims of female superiority in reaction time and motor skills.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  16. Carrys

    Carrys Inquisitive

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    Nothing we say or think is going to matter.

    This is a done deal, tis a sign of the times and what our Country has come to.

    Hide and watch.
     
  17. tsmo1066

    tsmo1066 Happy Smiley

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    It's tough to argue with a first-hand account like the woman's you cite.
     
  18. AK_Stick

    AK_Stick AAAMAD

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    TSMO, do you have any practical experience in the matter or is your only familierity in this subject what you have read in the reports your using as sustinence?
     
  19. jollygreen

    jollygreen

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    I have no problem with women in combat, law enforcement or firefighting as long as they pass the standards everyone else must pass.

    What I have a problem with is relaxing those standards just to accomodate some particular demographic group.

    Such as a major city no longer requiring cops to be able to read in order to include a particular minority, etc.

    I have a firefighter friend who said that their department is an equal opportunity employer. The women on the department, however, aren't able to fulfill necessary tasks. For example, they have to carry a big roll of hose up stairs. A male firefighter has to stop whatever he's doing to help some liberated broad do her job.

    That's not right.
     
  20. tsmo1066

    tsmo1066 Happy Smiley

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    Please define "practical experience in the matter"? Yes, I am thoroughly familiar with the physical demands placed on combat infantrymen and the current PT standards in the military, but no I have never personally served with a female combat infantryman.

    That's one reason I deferred to the first-hand account that Big Bird posted from a female Infantry Officer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012