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00 For Home Defense

Discussion in 'Tactical Shotguns' started by fodder1, Oct 5, 2011.

  1. fodder1

    fodder1 Just a Member

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    I know this has been discussed many times before, and not sure if this has been posted. But, this was an interesting Gun digest article in relation to 00 Buck for HD. Depending on who is in your home, some may want to re-think their HD ammo.


    Buckshot: Overkill for the Home Defense Shotgun?

    Scott Wagner | Sep 27, 2011



    In interior (not mixed interior/exterior) home defense situations, buckshot and slugs are totally out of the question, unless perhaps you are using them in a .410 shotgun.


    At seven yards, the Remington 8-pellet reduced recoil round puts an excellent, tight pattern on this bad guy target. Large hole in suspect's hand is from the wad. Point of aim is about right for a shotgun-definitely “minute of felon.”

    In a shooting we had at my Sheriff’s Office several years ago, the offender, a man of average stature, was shot in the area of the navel square on with a Remington® 870 12 gauge pump loaded with Remington Reduced Recoil 8-pellet (yes, eight pellets – it eliminates the one stray pellet normally encountered in 00 buck shot patterns) 00 Buckshot load at a distance of about seven yards.

    This load, by the way is excellent, one of the very best law enforcement loads, and one of the tightest patterning loads I have ever shot in any shotgun. It increases the safe usage of 12 gauge buckshot well out to 30 yards, and is great for headshots at seven to 10 yards, or a little further out in improved cylinder choke barrels.

    Anyway all eight pellets blew through the suspect’s intestines and impacted in the dirt on the other side of him. He stopped his threatening actions but did not die. This means that if you hit an offender square on (facing you) with 00 buckshot, even with a lower velocity reduced recoil load, the pellets can and do punch right out the back, endangering others.

    Remember, the load is called “buckshot” because it was originally used for killing large animals, like buck deer, and in places like India sometimes tiger. It is powerful stuff. Legendary in terms of its killing and stopping power, buckshot is the shotgun round that people fear the most.

    Most criminals are too dense to realize that they face an equal amount of damage, maybe even more, due to shredding effect of all those little pellets from a close range load of AA Trap and Skeet as they do from the 00. However, don’t be misled. These loads can and will punch right through drywall at close range. Remember, they only spread one inch per yard, and at close range it is a lot like getting hit with a single, solid projectile.


    LOADS LIKE the Remington Reduced Recoil 8-pellet round are more than capable of hostage rescue shots at seven yards and out.

    If you have overpenetration concerns, you may want to closely examine whether a shotgun is the best weapon to choose. A lower powered handgun, which can still punch through a wall, but is only putting a single projectile at a time through it (assuming you are missing your intended target), may work out better for you, especially in an apartment where there are neighbors close at hand. Even then, you should limit your handgun ammo selection to pre-fragmented rounds like the Glaser Safety Slug or Magsafe.

    For general home and property defense, where over-penetration is not a major concern, buckshot of various types and sizes is probably the best choice, not only for two-legged predators, but for large four-legged predators at close range as well. Those trap and skeet loads run out of steam pretty fast in terms of effectiveness over distance.

    The law enforcement community dumped the use of #4 buckshot as a duty load and went back to 00 buck when we began finding out that #4 wasn’t giving the desired penetration. Rifled slugs are mostly to be avoided unless you need the longer range and penetration a rifled slug affords, or if you live soemwhere like Alaska, where your four legged predator problem involves large animals like bear, rather than the coyote of the Midwest.

    Yep, for Alaskan defense, 3- to 3-1/2-inch magnum rifled slugs, and a six to nine round magazine capacity sounds like an ideal combination.

    This article is an excerpt from Gun Digest Tactical Shotgun.
     
  2. WoodenPlank

    WoodenPlank Who?

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    This is the part I take exception to...

    First, how many times does the whole "bird shot acts like a single projectile" myth need to be debunked? It doesn't happen.

    Bird shot will produce horrific wounds, but they will be exceptionally shallow, and the pellets lack the mass needed to reach CNS structures, or to penetrate the ribs and sternum. The perp might stop from pain alone, but that is an awfully big MIGHT when your life is on the line.

    If over penetration is your concern, bird shot is NOT the answer.
     

  3. ScrappyDoo

    ScrappyDoo Tacticool brah!

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    I don't know stuff about stuff but - I do know, at 7 yards, not only will 00 Buck blast a bad guy dead, it will probably carry the bad guy up in the air into the wall , crashing thru the sheetrock. I mean you're talking about the actual bad guy overpenetrating into the wall, not just the 00 buckshot. so 8 pellets (again why are we using 8 shot 00 Buck, please? I'm not really in the least satisfied with the answer and could write a doctoral dissertation on that subject alone but, please retort.) Went "blasting thru his intestines, but he did not die" .... AT 7 YARDS......


    Say that line a few times slowly then allow it to sink in. And see how you feel about it.



    So we are now saying, you ain'[t safe unless you got 9 3 1/2" rounds of whatever, magnun rifled slugs. Wow. You trying to rob one of those bulletproof glass windowed-surrounded banks now?


    I'm quite content with my M930SPX and regular old joe six pack, 00 Buck 2 3/4". Absolutely content.
     
  4. ScrappyDoo

    ScrappyDoo Tacticool brah!

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    wooden, Just because I appreciate it so much how you said it, the whole "bird shot acts as a mass up close" is a matter of science. It's high school level physics but still that is a tough subject. I'm real lucky, I got a great education and was regarded as pretty smart and if it wasn't for booze I'd probably have a doctorate by now, but STILL I fail miserably trying to explain the science of this to those who are either unable or unwilling to understand... It's NOT A MATTER OF OPINION, no matter how much they want it to be - IT'S SCIENCE. 100x little hits of birdshot bb's do not add up to the force of say 9 big 00 shots. etc. It's so simple yet so complicated, I gave up trying in 2010.
     
  5. WoodenPlank

    WoodenPlank Who?

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    Actually, gut wounds are often survivable if the shootee is gotten to the hospital quickly. I used to know a cop that was shot under the vest at an upward angle, and nearly bled out. He lost a few feet of intestine, but he was rushed to the hospital in time and survived.

    I bet the incident in the article would have ended differently with about 6" higher shot placement.

    At point blank range, the pellets will still be in a tight group, sure. At 7 yards? No way. Also, they will not behave as a solid on impact, they will behave as a large group of very small objects - much closer to a fluid than a solid. The penetration of bird shot is still almost totally determined by the individual mass of the pellets, not the total mass of the whole. The only exception is when a pellet closely follows the crush cavity of another pellet immediately in front of it in the shot column, thereby giving it a very small percentage of extra penetration.

    How's that explanation sound for ya? :supergrin:
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2011
  6. VinnieD

    VinnieD

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    This article first argues that 00 buck failed to stop an attacker, then calls it overkill, then insists on a lighter load. Poppycock.
     
  7. GAFinch

    GAFinch

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    Then says how police stopped using a lighter load due to inadequate penetration. I'm confused.
     
  8. Berto

    Berto woo woo

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    Whatever. I'll stick with buckshot, 00.
     
  9. AA#5

    AA#5

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    I stay with 00 Buck because I have no way of predicting what distance I may have to shoot. I've patterned my "Vang Comp 870 on paper at 7 & 15 yards & I know what to expect.
     
  10. B Coyote

    B Coyote

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    One commenter (FMD) hit the nail on the head about that article.

    bc
     
  11. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

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    +1
    Bird shot is for birds not for defense, that is unless you are worried about birds attacking you.
    Pat
     
  12. WayaX

    WayaX Lifetime Member

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    While I didn't really like the article, I think that shotguns are a terrible choice for home defense. You are responsible for every piece of shot you fire. And another common myth about the shotgun is that you don't really have to aim it. That's just setting people up for disaster.

    And the idea of birdshot acting as a single large projectile is totally bunk.
     
  13. WayaX

    WayaX Lifetime Member

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    Hitchcock comes to mind.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2011
  14. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

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  15. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

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    So true I know of one guy who tried to commit suicide with a shotgun loaded with bird shot. He survived. His face looks like a pumpkin now but he lived with no life threatening injury.
    Pat
     
  16. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

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    That is completely false. Firearm projectiles do not have the power to send people flying through the air. This is an invention of Hollywood. The best you can hope for is to hit the CNS and have the threat crumple right there but most of the time death does not come that fast.
    Pat
     
  17. fodder1

    fodder1 Just a Member

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    My reason behind posting this was not to start a 00 Buck vs. "any other load" debate, I think that has been done to death. When I read this, it made me re-evaluate the physical details of where I might use a Shotgun in an HD situation.

    As an example, outside my bedroom door, at a distance of 10-14 feet, are two other bedrooms with extremely precious cargo. This specific piece:

    made me think about what could happen. For this same reason, I don't load +P handgun ammo for HD. I don't need the extra velocity at the distances it would be used.

    The intent, is to make people THINK about their own specific situation, and not use loads just because someone told them to, or the FBI does, or Glock Talk said so, etc...

    We should take the responsible path and ensure we reduce even the slightest chance of hurting what we are attempting to protect. Agree with it, don't agree with it...it's your choice. But, I do hope people will think about, and re-evaluate, their plan. If 00 Buck fits the bill, great. If not, you may need to figure out what does.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2011
  18. RYNOCG201

    RYNOCG201

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    Me Too
     
  19. VZ1600

    VZ1600

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    Ummm.....no.

    Sorry Scrappy, but maybe it's time to lay off the John Woo movies huh? Newton's 3rd law disputes your post.

    Newton's 3rd Law: "To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions"

    So everytime you fire your 930 SPX do you fly a few feet backwards through the air? No? Hmmmm, then I highly doubt the bad guy will either.

    Btw, you did mention "high school level physics" in another post in this thread. Newton's 3rd Law was taught in HS science class. At least it was at my HS. :upeyes:
     
  20. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

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    If you are using hollow point ammuntion adding more velocity decreases penetration and increases expansion. Only if you are using non expanding ammunition like ball does adding more velocity always increase penetration.
    pat