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Are military projectiles getting smaller?

5K views 81 replies 45 participants last post by  Joseph Senko 
#1 ·
Is it just my imagination or are military projectiles getting smaller and lighter?
Why do you think this is?

I have been thinking this morning about M1 Garand, Mauser, Mosin Nagant, etc...
Compared to the modern day 556/223 we have settled on a much smaller projectile.
Why do you think this is? Are other countries also following this same trend?

I consider myself I gun enthusiast but not a history or war buff.

Does modern day technology lend itself to being able to manufacture smaller guns and ammo or does modern research show us that smaller and more controllable rounds are more effective?

Would a military engineer been laughed out of the room if he had brought a modern 556 size projectile to a WWII planning meeting?

Your thoughts?
 
#51 ·
Is it just my imagination or are military projectiles getting smaller and lighter?
Why do you think this is?

I have been thinking this morning about M1 Garand, Mauser, Mosin Nagant, etc...
Compared to the modern day 556/223 we have settled on a much smaller projectile.
Why do you think this is? Are other countries also following this same trend?

I consider myself I gun enthusiast but not a history or war buff.

Does modern day technology lend itself to being able to manufacture smaller guns and ammo or does modern research show us that smaller and more controllable rounds are more effective?

Would a military engineer been laughed out of the room if he had brought a modern 556 size projectile to a WWII planning meeting? No smaller means you can carry more 556 than 7.62 logistic wise. Effectiveness is another issue. You probably will run out of 7.62 before 5.56 since you can carry more. Now which does the job better is another question.

Your thoughts?
 
#53 ·
It seems that calibers are slightly bigger than the old standard. In the SPECOPS world there's plenty testing going on with intermediate calibers like .280. Seems to have better terminal ballistics. How about the .300 blackout? Not really smaller in caliber but a nice mix of 2 cartridges. It gives you more options with your rifle; no special tools needed!! I think that we'll see more inventions like this in the near future ......... can't wait.
 
#54 ·
That was a M-2 machine gun outfitted with a scope, not a purpose built sniper system. Note that story never says how many times he pushed the paddles.
 
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#55 ·
Snipers are relatively rare. The same bolt action rifles that have been in service since we lost our last few wars are still in use in .308, although the Lapua and .50 BMG weapons are around, they are not exactly overflowing military armories. The interim step is the "designated marksman" this is the guy who has an AR platform weapon (M4, etc) But it has a bit of glass on it. Most infantry men are not really what past generations would call "riflemen". Carlos Hathcock? Hopefully President Trump hears from the Marines about one of the finest Americans to ever wear the uniform, and he gets that MOH (posthumously) that political correctness forbade. May he live forever in the Halls of Valhalla!
 
#56 ·
After WWII, a committee studied lessons learned from the war. One of their conclusions were that the soldiers were over encumbered with the full power M1 Garand rifles. The Garand, capable of effective hits at 1000 yards, through 4 inches of concrete at closer ranges, was unnecessary in modern combat. The field of battle dictated that carefully aimed shots at long ranges to be unnecessary because the average soldier encounters the enemy between 210-250 meters. Too much time was spent with your head exposed, trying to make a great shot, when a good shot will do. Because the enemy would be encountered closer, mobility and faster operation was desired. A soldier didn't need a large bullet, so speed made up for mass, and bullets transformed. The 223 with its 55 grain bullet was devastating from a 20 inch rifle, but over the years, the bullet got heavier, 62 grains, and wouldn't travel as fast. Enter the CAR15 carbine. The heavier bullets combined with abbreviated barrels, reduced stopping power. Enter the M4. The now 68 grain 5.56 is pushed out of a 14 inch barrel, going even slower, but not so effective at longer ranges, necessitating the need to have Squad Designated Marksman, and a resurgence of the 30 caliber became necessary.
 
#58 ·
Anyone who has ever picked up an M1 Garand or the earlier 03 Springfield, knows how heavy they are. Add a bunch of ammo, k-rations, water, entrenching tool, extra clothing, and one of those neck killing helmets, and you'll wonder how they hoofed miles each day. I know they were just plain tough. As others have said, shooting changed, as did the type of war being waged, and the M 16 eventually became the one. That's how I understand it.
When you say that, I'm reminded of the 3rd Army, who on General Patton's order, marched about 100 miles in like 2 days, in the cold, fresh from a fight, to relieve the soldiers in contact at Bastogne, in the Battle of the Bulge. That sort of man is hard to find today! Those men were carrying heavy rifles, BARs, Thompson SMGs, Browning 1919s and ammo, M1 Garands at least 80 rounds, likely more, neck breaking helmet, rations, and all the warm gear you could muster! Those were some tough, very dedicated men!
 
#63 ·
Stoners AR10 was designed to compete against what became the M14 and FAL. The FAL was designed to fire an intermediate cartridge then enlarged for the 7.62x51. The ordnance OIC ignored the benefits of the Stg 44 and it's intermediate cartridge basically because we won with the M1 and they lost.
People seem to forget that the Garand was designed for a smaller cartridge, but was stopped by the Chief of Staff Douglas MacArthur because of the large quantities of 3006 ammunition and weapons from WW1.
 
#66 ·
#1) You should learn to comprehend English.

#2) I know a couple people who were in Vietnam. They were supposedly Rangers with Silver Stars if their DD-214 papers aren't fake. They claimed they got them from rescuing a downed pilot in Cambodia. They said they never saw the enemy while on patrol. They heard gunfire and just sprayed the jungle. I do not know about the praying part.

P.S. You must have been a sergeant: My guess Marine. You sound like an insecure Narcissistic idiot. But don't worry, there are plenty more people just like you on this board who will come rushing to rescue your ego. I suggest you seek Psychiatric help from the VA: Vietnam has been over for over 40 years.

P.P.S. I wasn't in Montreal. I was in Elementry School in the 1970's. I joined the Army in the 1990's. There were still soldiers who were in Vietnam stationed at Ft Benning. My First Sergeant was in Vietnam: 23rd Americal Division.He told stories of how many bullets were sprayed for every enemy killed.
Numerous times my Sergeant ordered the squad to shoot a mound of dirt until we were out of ammo (blanks). Then we would sit there looking stupid as we were overrun by the OPFOR. The Idiot Sergeant couldn't figure out why we ran out of ammo even after we told him. It was this amount of incredible stupidity which made me leave the Army. The SOP was to shot at nothing. Therefore I have personal experience with what is the Army's SOP. I was more afraid of my own troops than the enemy.


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A strange response from someone who was never in combat. "Someone told me" indeed. You post a very insulting statement about Viet Nam War Veteran's and then try to back it up with hearsay. "I have no personal experience with SOP". Alright, then why are you spouting off about some imaginary training? I sense a very disgruntled person that had a very negative experience in the Army. No, we didn't shoot up all our ammunition than stand there stupidly. What an idiotic, derogatory thing to post. The VA takes care of me just fine for physical problems that are service connected, not mental problems. I think you are actually jealous of the Men that served in combat. I wasn't a Marine. 1st Cavalry, actually. I'm sure I could get verification from other Men that served, unfortunately many of them are dead. Stick to what you know, I won't hold your ignorance against you.
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#71 ·
Tangent...

Military rounds:
If you want the constant like Einstien has as the speed of light...

The .50 BMG is it... As a machine gun round still fantastic ...

Sure 7.62 tried to punch up, 20 mm and canon on rounds tried to punch down.

But the M2 is like the Brown Bess... In history books across centuries.
 
#72 ·
When you go back in history you see a specific trend. Early powders and iron and brass did not allow for high speed projectiles. The basic equation Force = mass x acceleration kind of explains it. Early rifle and pistol calibers from muzzle loaders tended to be large in diameter (.70 Towers pistol and .58 caliber rifles for example) because the weapons could not produce very high velocities. The large diameter projectiles obviously made large holes. Their mass driving them deep into the animal/person being struck. The soft lead projectiles making horrible wounds.
Once innovations like the production of better metals for the production of the weapons such as steel. Throw in rifling, better powders, metallic cartridges, more aerodynamic bullets and things change. Going from the .58 caliber Springfield muzzle loaders of the Civil War. To the .45-70 breech loading Sharps. From the muzzle loading .50+ calibers of single shot pistols to the various .36, .44, and .45 caliber revolvers including both the early percussion revolvers through the cartridge loaded models. As innovation allowed for faster projectiles and more of them in the various weapons we see the calibers downsizing.
Next as we move away from black powder to early powders that replaced them you see rifles going from .45 to +/- .30 caliber. And you begin to see as auto's are developed and various .30 to roughly .36 caliber automatic and revolver handguns. Also a move to jacketed bullets of various types instead of just lead. After World War II various studies by the warring powers found that the large .30 caliber weapons were for the most part overpowered for the way fighting had evolved. Except for snipers most confrontations took place not at 800 meters where the powerful .30 calibers were designed. But rather 300 meters was the average. With most being about 100 meters. And it was found that you were just as likely to be hit by random fire as you were by aimed fire at these distances.
So emphasis was placed on volume of fire, lighter weapons with lighter cartridges. Hence more controllable fire, with higher volumes of lighter ammo for the battlefields after W.W. II. Soldiers carrying lighter weapons, with lighter ammo that was high velocity to make up for lack of mass. Enter the various .22 caliber (5.45, 5.56) high velocity rounds. The U.S. was even experimenting with sabot rounds firing weapons that were supposed to throw multiple flechette's (think nails with fins) from a single round at velocities of 4000 f.p.s.. Never really worked it out though. The M16 was supposed to be a stop gap measure until these came out.
Interestingly enough the groups that fought with the larger caliber weapons gripped with each step down to smaller faster rounds. But like most things one size does not fit all. The 5.56 is effective within the ranges it was designed for. But to reach out and touch someone they had to bring out the .30 or greater caliber weapons again. The various 6.5 to 6.8 calibers seem to offer the best compromise of speed and size. But they are not being fielded in large numbers. So it appears that until a miniature rail gun that can throw darts at 10,000 f.p.s. is developed we will have the .22 caliber and a few .30 calibers in the mix for awhile.
 
#74 ·
It seems everyone is endorsing the 9mm over the .45ACP especially with the army and DHS both going for the Sig P320. For a serious fire fight I would preer the .45 ACP or the 10mm. I know, I am going to piss off the 9mm fans. And I own 2 Glock 19's (his and hers), but all the other calibers up for the Glock as well except for the .357 sig and the GAP.
 
#76 ·
Don't know; but sniper rounds seem to be getting bigger.
As they should, with todays evolving optics, and equipment letting us continually push the limits of the cartridge, where as in the 40's and 50's the optics were often the limiting component of the mix.
 
#78 ·
If you're interested, read about the Pedersen rifle, and 276 Pedersen.

The Army was playing with sub 30 caliber rounds in the 30's and found them to be as realistically lethal as the 30 calibers, at anticipated combat range. But we had stocks of 30-06, and budget strings were pulled tight.


Money, and what you have, often dictates what you get.

Much the same, is the reason the M24 was built on a long action. The original thought was to have a hot loaded 30-06 for increased performance. But they discovered there were not enough rounds in the system for a 06, and it got hot swapped to 308 because we had it, and it was a almost painless changeover.
 
#79 ·
That thing about the 5.56 being designed to wound and not kill is pure hogwash that keeps popping up again and again. In fact one of the things that helped sell the 5.56 round were the early SF's guys that had the M193 rounds coming out of a 20" barreled M-16 with a 1:12 twist doing things like "riping heads off" and other comments about how effective the round was at putting the bad guys down for good.
NATO standards do not require rounds to penetrate a kevlar helmet (read kill with a headshot) at so many meters to wound. Hell in lots of the world if someone is wounded their comrades will finish them off. In most of our conflicts of the past decades the societies either thought little of the individual (Communism) or thought is great to die for Allah (Islamic terrorists). Medical treatment was almost non-existent. If bodies are taken away it is so we on't get an accurate count on how many killed. The people we fight currently do very little for their wounded based on political/religious beliefs or advanced medical treatment facilities. And a wounded animal is the most dangerous animal their is.
 
#81 ·
#1) You should learn to comprehend English.

#2) I know a couple people who were in Vietnam. They were supposedly Rangers with Silver Stars if their DD-214 papers aren't fake. They claimed they got them from rescuing a downed pilot in Cambodia. They said they never saw the enemy while on patrol. They heard gunfire and just sprayed the jungle. I do not know about the praying part.

P.S. You must have been a sergeant: My guess Marine. You sound like an insecure Narcissistic idiot. But don't worry, there are plenty more people just like you on this board who will come rushing to rescue your ego. I suggest you seek Psychiatric help from the VA: Vietnam has been over for over 40 years.

P.P.S. I wasn't in Montreal. I was in Elementry School in the 1970's. I joined the Army in the 1990's. There were still soldiers who were in Vietnam stationed at Ft Benning. My First Sergeant was in Vietnam: 23rd Americal Division.He told stories of how many bullets were sprayed for every enemy killed.
Numerous times my Sergeant ordered the squad to shoot a mound of dirt until we were out of ammo (blanks). Then we would sit there looking stupid as we were overrun by the OPFOR. The Idiot Sergeant couldn't figure out why we ran out of ammo even after we told him. It was this amount of incredible stupidity which made me leave the Army. The SOP was to shot at nothing. Therefore I have personal experience with what is the Army's SOP. I was more afraid of my own troops than the enemy.


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In 1967, I went to FMF School, we learned how to Marine. My DI ran us constantly. We trained for 1 week on the M-14 and 3 days on the 1911A1 (our TO weapon). To this day, I love the M-14, accurate to a fault. We shot out to 400 yards. I got really good with it. My advantage, I grew up shooting rifles and shotguns. Never thought it was heavy and we carried 10 20 round mags. No big deal for most of us. In Nam they handed this thing that looked like a toy rifle with a handle. I looked at the Sgt. strangely. So he asked what I trained on and I said the M-14. So he took me out back, there were drums about 30 yards away. We fired 1 mag, some of the bullets went through, some bounced off and zipped pass my head. I declared it a toy but that is what I was stuck with. He gave me 14 loaded mags. I went to Delta Med and picked up my medical gear. Two bags.
 
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