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Shot my G27 for the first time today, was all over the place

4K views 56 replies 20 participants last post by  Glocksterini 
#1 ·
I started with a G17 that I felt very good about shooting and believed I could hit pretty well. Traded up to a G22 because I wanted the larger caliber shot "just in case." I haven't been as accurate with the G22 as I was with the G17 but I attribute that to lack of range time. It's been over a year since I've really focused on shooting my handgun because I have been focusing on my marksmanship with a rifle.

I bought a G23 for EDC because it was smaller and a better CCW. I didn't like it because it was/seemed worn out: the slide wouldn't lock back and both the slide and slide release seemed excessively worn. I couldn't shoot it well and in my mind I felt that the pistol was "shot out" and I needed a new one to improve. Duh...So, I traded it for a new G27 which I was able to shoot for the first time today. I've added grip extensions to all magazines to allow for all four fingers to have a solid purchase while shooting.

The temperature was 52° with clear skies and light winds at 1-3 mph. While everyone else at the range was shooting steel, I was shooting paper because I wanted to see where I was hitting. I was shooting 165gr Winchester FMJ range ammo at a silhouette target at 8 yards and the first few shots almost missed the paper. I convinced myself to calm down and apply the basics that I've learned from reading on the internet about proper grip, stance and sight picture.

I was having real trouble holding onto the G27 in the "preferred grip" of two hands presented by Travis Haley of Haley Strategic from youtube. I try and try but I can't get my hands to form a solid weld to the pistol as has been suggested. I adjusted a number of different times but still felt the recoil was pulling the pistol out of my hands during the recoil phase. I attempted to compensate for my lack of secure grip by placing my left hand index finger over the front of the trigger guard and this didn't work at all because I was unable to keep that hold consistently.

The only thing that worked was to return my grip to how I was shooting before I traded my G17: pistol butt plate seated in my left palm with the left hand fingers grasping the fingers of my right hand from the bottom up, over the front of the fingers of my right hand. This grip afforded the most consistent stability allowing me to return the sights to target without resetting my grip after each shot like milking the grip.

My groups were stringing across the target from right to left consistently four inches to the left and two inches low. I was able to tighten up the group by moving my finger on the trigger to the second joint and gripping the pistol quite a bit tighter with my right hand. The group went from 8" to 4" and I reduced the difference between my point of aim and point of impact by almost six inches scoring several very nice single shots in a tighter group that had begun to round up from the horizontal string I started with...but I'm not comfortable with these results.

I shot approximately 300 rounds and improved significantly over the course of a few hours. I took my time and examined what I was doing using the frequent breaks to really think about things.

My question for the experts is this: is there a "best grip" for consistency and how do you hold it?

I realize that I need more practice and will need to maintain my skill through regular shooting. I have not remained current over the last year and will need to change my shooting schedule to incorporate pistol practice as well as rifle practice concurrently.
 
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#2 ·
try getting the Pierce Plus 1 extension(it looks like an extension of the gun).That, and using 180grain cartridges worked wonders for my accuracy, immediately. It's also more comfortable to shoot.
 
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#3 ·
I have the Pierce grip extensions already for all three magazines. I do have some 180gr ammo in my case and I'll try that on my next range outing. It is my intention to continue to practice regularly with this pistol as it is my CCW
 
#5 ·
Practice, practice, practice. I shoot all my semi-autos with my index finger on the front of the trigger guard. I pull straight back with it and tight grip my grip hand. It puts my off hand thumb farther out as a guide. Probably unorthodox, but it works for me.
 
#6 ·
This was my thinking as well. I know that shooting is a perishable skill and that I've allowed my limited skills to lapse by not shooting regularly. I intend to continue to improve as I increase my range time as well as seek other sources of formal training. I find it interesting to know that you too are using the front of the trigger guard as part of your grip and I will examine this option again. Thanks for your comments; I appreciate your help.
 
#7 ·
No matter how worn your 23 was, it probably shot very straight. I'm 99% sure that the reason you shot the 22 worse than the 17, and the 23 worse yet than the 22, and the 27 even worse is because you're anticipating recoil and/or jerking the trigger. The recoil you'll feel going from 17 to 22 to 23 to 27 gets progressively worse. No matter how you grip the gun, if you jerk it off the target a split second before it goes off, that's obviously a problem.

I would suggest you have someone else load your magazines for you at the range, and have them put a dummy round in each magazine at a random place in the shot order. You'll see what I mean by anticipating the recoil in short order. It's not something that's easy for every shooter to overcome (it's not for me anyway).
 
#8 ·
Just to add, it has been my experience that whenever I take someone who is completely new to shooting to the range, I sit them down beforehand and explain all the fundamentals of safety, sight picture, grip, etc, and I tell them that they'll hit the bullseye dead-center on their very first shot, and that the rest will be low. I've very rarely seen anything except that happen, exactly. On that first shot, they don't know what the recoil even feels like, so they don't anticipate anything. After that, their brain remembers and wants to control it. It's just the way we're wired.

The most notable exception I've seen was the 18yo daughter of a co-worker. She took a ton of time between shots, but it was very clear that she was pressing very slowly until it would go off rather than just jerking the trigger like so many do. She was shooting a tight little group with the LCP that I brought, something that's very difficult to do with such a harsh-recoiling gun. That range day was her first time shooting a handgun, and needless to say, I was impressed.
 
#9 ·
If I read everything that everyone has written here as well as other threads regarding shooting issues, I'm jerking the trigger and anticipating recoil: two separate issues that will pull the pistol off target before the shot goes off.

I was able to make a 50% improvement in my groups, both tightening the placement as well as eliminating the "stringing", by placing my finger deeper into the trigger just past the first joint as well as tightening my grip but both of these things reflect the idea of attempting to control recoil.

I understand the idea of shooting dummy rounds to teach the shooter about anticipating recoil. I'll have to work on that since I never shoot with anyone else so I don't have anyone else to load mags for me.

I think that I can learn to manage the recoil by simply relaxing into shooting again. It's been months since I've shot my pistol at all and this new pistol gave me butterflies of anticipation and excitement. However, am I correct is my assertion that there is no "right" grip and that what works well, works?
 
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#13 ·
However, am I correct is my assertion that there is no "right" grip and that what works well, works?
This is just my opinion, but I would say this is a correct statement. A "better" grip does little more than get the sights back on target faster. It doesn't make the shot itself more accurate.

Along those lines, there's nothing in the world you can do to keep the gun from recoiling. If you're trying to actually STOP recoil from happening (most likely sub-consciously), that's where your anticipation is coming from. You have to let the recoil happen. With the right grip and stance, you aren't consciously pushing down on the gun to get it back on target, you're letting it return on its own after the shot breaks.

All is much easier said than done. I have a lot of practice and I still sometimes struggle with this.
 
#11 ·
REcoil matters. I shoot a lot, big guns, little guns, 9mm thru 4" 44mag. I don't find the g27 comfortable. So I went G26. I actually shoot it better than my G17, weird, but it seems to fit Better. I have mags with extensions & mags with 0.300" base pads, both allow me to get my little finger on the grip.
For me, full power 40 belongs in a full size gun, JMO. You gain nothing shooting a more powerful gun & not getting good hits. I have moved several new shooters off their G27 or G36 to a G26 or G19. I like bigger calibers, especially in 10rd + states, but when going smaller gun, go smaller caliber for better control.
Index finger on the trigger guard is a no-no, but some persist. My grip is the same for a 5" gun as the G26. Then again I have avg size hands. Big hands, maybe not.
 
#12 ·
I am a big guy and have big hands but I didn't feel like having the index finger on the trigger guard helped much if at all. I'm going to examine that option. However, I wanted to stay with one caliber for the sake of ammo so I'm going to train with the G27 for a while just to be sure it's not my lost skills from lack of shooting that aren't negatively affecting my overall performance.

I'm not opposed to admitting that I may have made a mistake about trading the G23 and may find myself going backwards, but I really like the way the G27 carries.

I'll be putting more rounds downrange to find out very soon. Thanks again for all the advice here...
 
#15 ·
I have a Glock 27. I carries nice, easy to to forget you have it, BUT it stings my average sized hands. Believe it or not I replaced it with a G29 (10mm). The recoil has from the 29 does not sting my hands near as bad as my 27 does. The 29 is slightly bigger and a lot heaver. It still possible to carry concealed and provides a lot more fire power. Full powered 10mm ammo rocks me back and I must tighten my core to stay on target. I'm not a heavy person. See my avatar.
 
#17 ·
Recoil is something to learn to manage. Why so many LEA are moving back to 9mm & why it is so popular with many civ, it is just easier to shoot well. Especially when talking rapid, good hits. I like power in a handgun, but you have to work at it, especially when you get into things like full power 10mm & the magnums 41 & up.
 
#18 ·
Ok, fredj338. I've read and respect your posts as I know you shoot a lot of matches and I'm betting you do very well. I see very few pro's do the front trigger guard grip. For some reason, it just comes natural to me. I'm not a pro, by any means, and I shoot a lot here at home. I've tried many times to use a more standard grip, but I just simply do better with the trigger guard grip. Especially with Glocks as they have the perfect spot, with serrations in it, like it was made for that. It also gets my thumb farther out under the slide which sort of becomes a guide. I do very well for defensive shooting which is my goal. With my 26, or my M&P 45C, at 10 yds, I can keep 2" groups shooting rounds about a second apart. Double or triple taps move a little, but still in critical mass. I guess my question for you would be, is it worth trying to change what comes naturally to achieve better results than I get now. At 62 plus, I'm not planning on becoming a competition shooter. I sincerely value your opinion. Thanks for any input. First shot.
 
#25 ·
Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. I am 60+, even as an instructor & upper level competition guy, i still take a training class every couple years, diff instructors, to see what others are doing & if i can tweak something. Generally, when i am teaching pistol, if the shooter is shooting well but their grip isn't perfect, i only ask them to try a "better" grip. If you are shooting poorly & your grip sucks, then we need to force a change.
Back when i started i was a weaver shooter. Today i am a mod isco shooter. I shoot better at 60 than i did at 30, declining physical skills & all. Its always worth investigating a new technique if it helps you get where you want to go.
You probably know who Lee Trevino was, pro golfer, quite succesful, but horrible swing/technique. Hard to argue it didnt work for him. If your goal is fast shots at 10yds & under & you can do that with an unorthodox grip, i probably wouldnt change it for you, but ask you to try something diff, see if we cant get the same results with 1/2 the trigger time. There is no 100% right way for every shooter.
 
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#20 · (Edited)
Have read all the advice given and agree with the practice and other tips. I have one other tip once you have put all this to practice. Try a different ammo. Win 165 gr FMJ was the largest and most inconsistent grouping in my Glock .40s by a wide margin. 180 gr FMJs in Win, Federal Champion or AE, and Magtech were all better. And my G23s really group Federal especially and Federal Champion 180 gr specifically much, much better than Win 165 gr FMJs.

And I am not a Win basher either as the .40 Win 180 was good and Win WB 115 gr or Win NATO are favorites in my G26s.

Many do not, but I have benchrest shot many of these and there are notable differences.
 
#21 · (Edited)
pAZ Ron, I've just ordered a case of 180gr for practice loads because I was able to score a better price for 180gr than I am paying for 165gr. This will allow me to test your premise by comparing the two loads side by side. I still have more than a few hundred rounds of 165gr so this will be a very good evaluation.

I believe I have shot less than 1,000 rounds of .40cal through all of my .40cal pistols combined so I intend to really apply myself toward mastering this piece before I jump ship. If I continue to have trouble and decide to make a change, I do like the idea that FredJ338 proposed regarding swapping the barrel/mags to a 9mm conversion. Of course I'll do the research about that before I make another rash decision that costs precious funds.

I really like the way the G27 carries and I intend to exercise all options to make this piece work. However, as mentioned earlier, I'm not to proud to admit that I made a mistake and change back to a G23. I still have my G22 that will keep me firmly in the .40cal camp but the other thing that occurs to me is that if I turn this into a 9mm that I could pass it to my wife (she doesn't currently carry but I know it has been on her mind) and I could pick up another G23. Just thinking out loud at the options...but first...I'm all in to train enough to know this weapon and my shooting skill.

I really appreciate the advice I've been receiving and y'all have really been helpful. Thank you so much.
 
#22 ·
pAZ Ron, I've just ordered a case of 180gr for practice loads because I was able to score a better price for 180gr than I am paying for 165gr. This will allow me to test your premise by comparing the two loads side by side. I still have more than a few hundred rounds of 165gr so this will be a very good evaluation..
What brand did you order? Even with in 180 gr bullet weights, some grouped better than others. So worth trying several if at first you don't succeed.
 
#26 ·
Thanks fredj. I do use a more orthodox grip sometimes, but shooting at home it's 3-4 mags then I'm done. Repetition is what's usually needed. Yeah Trevino had a funky swing for sure. Watched an older interview with him recently. He's a fun guy and has great stories. Orville Moody had a withered right arm which made his swing very strange also. His right elbow would fly loose in the air. Montana is waiting for you. Hope you can stay with GT there. First shot.
 
#27 ·
Gentlemen, I'd say Trevino was a testament to the axiom that repeatability is the key. Being able to reproduce the same swing over and over made him extremely successful. I'll first need to shoot more, then work towards adopting/adapting a grip that can be repeated for successful performance.

I am very thankful to have so much advice for assistance.
 
#30 ·
The most common mistake that shooters make that I see is simply not using enough support hand pressure. An easy way to tell if this applies to you is to video yourself shooting, and if the gun is sliding around in your offhand (camera doesn't lie) or you observe yourself fixing your grip frequently you should squeeze harder.

I was actually at the range in Danville this past weekend. Bulletproof glass..... isn't. Welcome to GT! Let me know if you'd ever like to go shoot!

fredj338 said:
That is where personnal training comes into play. Really hard & expensive to self diagnose & practice to achieve positive change. Even a single day class with a master shooter, which i aspire to, can really improve your shooting.
This. You really can't teach yourself to do it properly. It is worth it to invest in some time with a quality instructor.
 
#31 ·
The most common mistake that shooters make that I see is simply not using enough support hand pressure. An easy way to tell if this applies to you is to video yourself shooting, and if the gun is sliding around in your offhand (camera doesn't lie) or you observe yourself fixing your grip frequently you should squeeze harder.

I was actually at the range in Danville this past weekend. Bulletproof glass..... isn't. Welcome to GT! Let me know if you'd ever like to go shoot!



This. You really can't teach yourself to do it properly. It is worth it to invest in some time with a quality instructor.
I am do exactly what you describe. I know it's a major part of my issue and would appreciate someone to shoot with that knows what they're looking at and can advise. Thank you!
 
#33 ·
I shoot 40 cal. in a full size pistol and a carbine rifle . ( recoil is manageable. )
I own a Glock 26 and I could not imagine shooting 40 out of that small gun. If you can master the G27,then my hats off to you!
 
#35 ·
I've been reading Defensive Pistols Fundamentals and have decided to convert back to 9mm. I'm going to be trading my G27 for a G26 and my G22 for a G17 to maintain ammunition compatibility and return to manageable recoil. When I first started shooting I began with a G17 and was able to hit pretty well for an untrained noobie. I have been studying this issue for weeks and will be looking to make this change in the next week or so.

I know I said earlier that I was planning on training with my G27 but my research has convinced me to make this change now.

Another way to look at this issue was voiced very well by an old cowboy who said, "There's too many good horses in the world to waste time foolin' with a bad one."
 
#36 ·
I've been reading Defensive Pistols Fundamentals and have decided to convert back to 9mm. I'm going to be trading my G27 for a G26 and my G22 for a G17 to maintain ammunition compatibility and return to manageable recoil. When I first started shooting I began with a G17 and was able to hit pretty well for an untrained noobie.

I know I said earlier that I was planning on training with my G27 but my research has convinced me to make this change now.
Who's work were you reading?

The thing about the .40 is that it exposed a gap in your skills. You still need to get training and close it up.
 
#40 ·
No disrespect bud but, it's YOU! My 27 is very accurate. You just need to adjust. Just alittle practice. That's all.
Not everyone can make the adjustment. I have moved several shooters off their small hand cannons to 9mm. Learning to shoot recoil requires a lot of trigger time with the recoil, good technique is obvious. Many are just not willing to put the time & $$ into it. Why we don't hand brand new shooters G27 & say go to it, learn to shoot. Ain't gonna happen.
 
#41 ·
Sometimes it isn't even recoil, it could be the gun not fitting your hand right, the size of the grip being uncomfortable, too short in length, too big in the wrong spot.

I shoot my 3rd Glock 26 much worse than I shoot my Gen4 G27. I'm sure it has to do with the smaller grip size of the gen4 just being a better fit for my hand, despite the increased recoil of the 40S&W over the 9mm (and it is noticeable, the 26 feels like shooting a 22lr when I shoot it right after my 27 or 30S).

Definitely keep an eye on whether or not you are pulling your shots. If you can't get someone to load a snap cap into the middle of your magazine just try doing some dry fire practice between mags. I caught myself anticipating the recoil and it allowed me to focus on correcting it. Dry firing a few times between magazines for a while helped greatly and taught me to focus only on the trigger pull and not on what comes after. Tightened my groups up significantly.
 
#42 ·
It took me along time to work out my own technique with my glocks. Grip, how much trigger finger etc. Now that I have my technique down the recoil of the cartridge matters not at all in fact I shoot my forties just as accurately as my nines, I shoot my gen 3 27 consistently more accurately than my gen 3 26. My 23 and 19 are a wash.
Try locking your right elbow hard and blade your body slightly so that all recoil energy is straight down the arm into the shoulder. Squeeze with your left hand. Man up and hold that gun down, it shouldn't be flipping all over the place it's only a 40 not a 500 sw. I give no conscious thought to the trigger on my glocks, I see the sight picture the decision to fire is made and it goes where I intended. If you think recoil is truly bothering you try several rapid fire Mag dumps to acclimate yourself with it.

Figure out what works for you.
 
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