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A question for entry guys

2K views 26 replies 20 participants last post by  Gombey 
#1 ·
A question I have been pondering for awhile, and am comfy enough (yay rum) to broach to the brain trust. . .

For more years than I really care to admit at my post middle-aged juncture, I have run point both on risky patrol entries and as a member of a part-time SWAT team in a rural area. With the following disclaimers of

1) I am NOT the ****
2) I do not know all, and am not looking to start an argument over my way VS whatever
3) I sure as heck ain't the end all and be all in entries, SWAT, patrol, or police work in general...
4) I don't hold a candle to the guys who do this as a full time gig


I am routinely first in the door when it is opened by whatever means, and have been offered a wide range of armaments to make entry with. To what is often the dismay of my teammates, I have always declined a larger and more powerful platform in lieu of my trusty sidearm (Glock 22 with a taclight)

My reasoning: The vast majority of the time, being first in, I encounter people who are either obedient (immediately hit the floor on command) or non-obedient non-resisting (non-combative but need assisting to the floor) or resisting but unarmed who need put on the floor (slam), and having a free hand and easily retained weapon has been helpful with that. On the occasion I have encountered armed subjects, they've thrown down and given up immediately so I've not yet had a shots fired on entry, just 'assists' and slams.

My theory: if I need to shoot, at across a room distances my sidearm will serve as an effective immediate action. If faced with armored or covered targets, I always made sure my second in was a partner with a long gun I had trained closely with, and he knew if I yelled a particular word I was going to drop and roll so he could light them up.

The question to those who care to answer; what is your preferred entry tool and why?

Purely interested to hear other's stories and reasoning who care to share, on the chance theirs may impact my own. I'm not in the business of questioning your choices or convincing you mine is better.

Stay safe out there, brothers and sisters. :hugs:
 
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#2 ·
I can't disagree with your reasoning. Especially, if you've got a long gun (or seven) right behind you.
 
#3 ·
My Narcotics team performed over 100 dynamic entries. If we knew there was a heavy threat then we called in ESU with the heavy weapons. For the overwhelming majority it was my team members and myself. all armed with issued 9mm pistols. Tac lights mounted on the pistols were forbidden. Welcome to the NYPD.

By the grace of God it all worked out well. They considered giving us MP-5's for about twenty seconds before the idea died a stillborn death.
 
#4 ·
I'll preface this response with these bullet points:

1) I'm on a tac team, not a SWAT team, so all of our search warrants are for drug offenders, and we will defer to the local SWAT team if we have intel that the target is armed or has criminal history for weapons offenses
2) Our team does things ****ed up

I'm the breacher for our warrant team, and I always go through the door first (see #2 above). The one exception to that was a case when we thought the target may have had a handgun (turned out to be an airsoft w/ the orange tip removed). In that instance, I breached the door, and #2 went in with a shield, #3 with a rifle.

We have always used pistols for our search warrants. Again, with "lower-risk" warrants, there isn't much of a reason to use a rifle or carbine. That said, I'd prefer a long gun for my entry duties. I agree about having the ability to go hands on with suspects, but to date I've yet to actually lay hands on anyone. I usually hold them at gunpoint and #2 scoops them up, but that's just me, and I'll refer you to #2 above.

While I'd prefer a long gun, given the types of warrants I do, I'm perfectly fine with the pistol, and in fact, there are definitely upsides to it, as you've noted. If it works for you, and the bosses are fine with it, I say rock on, Megatron, so long as you're not putting anyone at risk by choosing the pistol over the long gun, and it sounds like you're not.
 
#5 ·
I have roughly 400 entries under my belt (that sounds like a lot, but it was over a period of years and we were pretty busy) and pretty good portion of that time I was in the first entry cell, so I spent quite a bit of time in your shoes;

For me, it was mission-specific, but most of the time it was a short barrel long (medium, really) gun (in the early days an MP-5, and later a 10-inch AR with 3 round burst that pretty much stayed on the semi setting) .....the gun always had a light, and it was properly slung in such a way that I could go hands free simply by dropping it if I needed to; on rare occasion, it would be handgun only, and sometimes it would even be a short 12 ga pump. I had some leeway, and I chose what worked for me.

If you have lots of long gun cover, and you feel like your handgun is the right tool, I don't see a problem with that.... Be solid and fast with it, have plenty of reloads, and you should be just fine.
 
#7 ·
I see no issue w/ your choice. I'd say it more has to do w/ what you feel you're a "sure" shot w/ and your issues w/ dealing w/ subjects is a fair point to ponder.

Making entry w/ a 10.5" barrel isn't too big of a deal, but it gets a little annoying the longer the barrel and the tighter the quarters...and the environment I worked in was different than yours. I'd say if you make entry on a Tac team in the civilian world w/ a pistol, over all it's just fine...and I'll assume that if it was an active shooter call you'd probably grab a long gun.
 
#9 ·
In your same shoes, my preference usually has more to do with the size of dwelling we are making entry into. Single wide trailer house, I prefer a pistol since I feel more agile with it. 3000 square foot dwelling with open floor plan, I like my rifle. Or if we have a long approach on foot I sometimes prefer my rifle no matter what the size of the dwelling is. We use 11 inch ar15's. Close quarters and resisting subjects can be done with a rifle but there is an element of risk to it. A rifle barrel forcibly drove into someones sternum usually gains compliance quickly or at least allows you to create enough distance for someone else to go hands on with a holstered weapon.
 
#11 ·
When we could plan it, the first guy was using a shield and only a shield. The second guy would be in the shield guys back pocket going wherever the shield guy was going. I was always the rifle guy until i found it to be cumbersome inside small areas. With a 16 inch rifle i was banging it on every wall and corner, so I went to using a pistol.

The guys with SBR's didn't seem to have a problem.
 
#12 ·
I was on entry for about 12 years. Always one of the first in the stack. Usually #1 or #2. We'd talk about who had the long gun. Some guys preferred the MP5, so I'd carry a pistol. If he wanted a pistol, I'd take my MP5 or Ithaca Stakeout. Really, not that big a deal.

We were very busy. It was the height of meth and meth labs when I started and then crack. Our city had more meth labs than most of the DFW area.

I ran lots of warrants with just a 1911. Lots of mobility. Free hand to open doors and grab people and things. No excess straps and doo dads to get snagged or hooked while moving.

As mentioned, lots of people behind me with long guns.

I did carry a suppressed MP5 quite a bit also. Particularly on labs. If the narcs got the timing wrong, and you hit it while they were powdering, the thought was the suppressed gun had a lessor chance of igniting the ether fumes if you had to shoot. Never tried out that theory, fortunately.
 
#13 ·
If yo
A question I have been pondering for awhile, and am comfy enough (yay rum) to broach to the brain trust. . .

For more years than I really care to admit at my post middle-aged juncture, I have run point both on risky patrol entries and as a member of a part-time SWAT team in a rural area. With the following disclaimers of

1) I am NOT the ****
2) I do not know all, and am not looking to start an argument over my way VS whatever
3) I sure as heck ain't the end all and be all in entries, SWAT, patrol, or police work in general...
4) I don't hold a candle to the guys who do this as a full time gig


I am routinely first in the door when it is opened by whatever means, and have been offered a wide range of armaments to make entry with. To what is often the dismay of my teammates, I have always declined a larger and more powerful platform in lieu of my trusty sidearm (Glock 22 with a taclight)

My reasoning: The vast majority of the time, being first in, I encounter people who are either obedient (immediately hit the floor on command) or non-obedient non-resisting (non-combative but need assisting to the floor) or resisting but unarmed who need put on the floor (slam), and having a free hand and easily retained weapon has been helpful with that. On the occasion I have encountered armed subjects, they've thrown down and given up immediately so I've not yet had a shots fired on entry, just 'assists' and slams.

My theory: if I need to shoot, at across a room distances my sidearm will serve as an effective immediate action. If faced with armored or covered targets, I always made sure my second in was a partner with a long gun I had trained closely with, and he knew if I yelled a particular word I was going to drop and roll so he could light them up.

The question to those who care to answer; what is your preferred entry tool and why?

Purely interested to hear other's stories and reasoning who care to share, on the chance theirs may impact my own. I'm not in the business of questioning your choices or convincing you mine is better.

Stay safe out there, brothers and sisters. :hugs:
If you want to make entry with your sidearm, great. You should have immediate access to a long gun, in my view, though. Perhaps slung across your back.
 
#14 ·
I was #1 for years then Team Leader then commander.
Go with what you are comfortable with it's you a$$.

I let the mission help me decide,early on I favored an MP5, and Colt Commando, Pistols were fine for confined spaces and vehicle work.

I really like a small long gun but that's me I'm not bashful about muzzle popping someone not listening to my commands and a long gun works much better than a pistol
 
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#15 ·
I'm usually right behind our shield guy. He carries a handgun and the rest of us have long guns.

Something to ponder... why are you using a team of that nature. It's because you are preparing for a gun fight. We go into a home (and plan it) with the expectation that we will have a fight. With that mindset you need to decide what will you do better with in a gunfight and what will do a better job of stopping the threat so you and your team members go home.

I don't know if you use a "risk assessment" before deciding if you are going to use a team or not to execute the search warrant. We generally do and that decides if we will rise to that level of force (deploying a tactical team is a show of force in itself so you should be able to articulate the need for it). If it isn't something that rises to that level then patrol and detectives will do a simple knock and announce and handle it that way.
 
#16 · (Edited)
This actually just came up at my PD. We're putting together a warrant service team so that we don't have to keep borrowing officers from patrol and so that we are all on the same page when executing search warrants. Included in the proposal was a request for 2 10" ARs with suppressors. Most of the officers in the stack won't be carrying them, but at least one will. I guess we'll see how this turns out.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Are you carrying a shield? There was a famous case in Detroit, found out from the trial coverage of the lead guy that he had a shield and a long gun, maybe MP5.

Ran into grandma, bumped or grabbed the barrel, ended up accidentally firing a round into a little girl on the couch, Aiyanna Jones. It was upper/lower flat, owned by grandma, target was friend of son, stayed in upstairs unit, being hit same time, didn't know which unit he was in..

I have no experience to share but that of others. I was surprised people try to one hand a long gun with a shield in the other, seems awkward. Always assumed shield guy would have handgun, SBR guys wound have 2 free hands.

Randy
 
#18 ·
Are you carrying a shield? There was a famous case in Detroit, found out from the trial coverage of the lead guy that he had a shield and a long gun, maybe MP5.

Ran into grandma, bumped or grabbed the barrel, ended up accidentally firing a round into a little girl on the couch, Aiyanna Jones. It was upper/lower flat, owned by grandma, target was friend of son, stayed in upstairs unit, being hit same time.

I have no experience to share but that of others. I was surprised people try to one hand a long gun with a shield in the other, seems awkward. Always assumed shield guy would have handgun, SBR guys wound have 2 free hands.

Randy
Our shield guy uses a pistol and amother pistol on his vest as well. Easier to grab another instead of doing a one handed reload. We just got the bat shield which runs with a sling and has a support for a longgun. We are practicing with it but haven't used it in the field yet
 
#21 ·
If you could just have shield on forearm, hand free for rifle it might not be clumsy. But then how do you keep bottom of shield off your shins? Hand on shield handle to stabilize it leaves rifle with flimsy one hand grip. Your approach seems the best from my armchair, they don't recruit reserves for the SWAT team here...

Guess everything's a compromise, nothing is perfect.

Randy

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
#23 ·
If it works for you I would say go with it pistol works fine in close proximity.
I mostly used an M4 for cqb. I found it easy to control with one hand and properly slung I had both use of my hands in a shorter time than I could holster. Other advantages of the M4 is it remains in battery even on muzzle contact, more accurate, and is a more effective striking implement.
 
#24 ·
Your handgun is convenient, nothing wrong with that. Easy to resecure and have both hands free. ....
+1 Problem with a long gun is, unless it has a sling, all the guy with the rifle/shotgun can do is either stand around or shoot someone. Even with a sling it's tough to get into a tussle while armed with a long arm. Ya need 'em in a raid, that's not a debate, it's just that their limitations for 98% of all warrant/raid encounters is pretty severe. Of course, there's that 2%...
 
#26 ·
May you expound?

In terms of effectiveness, accuracy, volume of fire, an M4 is always superior to a side arm. Shield guys, notwithstanding.
+1 Problem with a long gun is, unless it has a sling, all the guy with the rifle/shotgun can do is either stand around or shoot someone. Even with a sling it's tough to get into a tussle while armed with a long arm. Ya need 'em in a raid, that's not a debate, it's just that their limitations for 98% of all warrant/raid encounters is pretty severe. Of course, there's that 2%...

long gun retention, with repetitive training, is not too difficult if executed with violence and speed.
 
#27 ·
In terms of effectiveness, accuracy, volume of fire, an M4 is always superior to a side arm. Shield guys, notwithstanding.
No doubt! But in an urban situation with others armed with an M4 or other long gun might it be more prudent to cut down on the weight and improve manoeuvrability?

If number one through the door has no plans to use the rifle maybe couple extra pistol magazines and a lager med kit would make more sense. If long guns come into play just fall back to cover.


Just so everyone is clear I'm simply playing devils advocate here. I really don't have too much to offer in the way of experience. It's just fun to move the convo along.
 
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