An article in the Rifleman brought this to mind, again. I'll try to narrow the question; 1911A1 with a traditional (ie, no firing pin safety or Ti firing pin) firing mechanism, condition 1 (chamber loaded, cocked, safety applied). How safe would it be on a muzzle down drop? The article suggested that firing pin springs be replaced when it was necessary to change the recoil spring.
The Series 80 system on Colts, the Swartz system, or the Ti firing pins all seem to indicate manufacturers see this as a potential issue.
What sez the group?
Moon
It has happened, but extremely rare. I heard of a PD in Texas had a 1911 shoot thru the second floor into the ground level by dropping it on its muzzle. I never looked it up to see if it is a true story.
When I was a Marine MP. One of the Marines on a post was removing his raincoat and his 1911A1 was pulled out of his Level I retention holster and discharged on the cement floor of his post.
Now SOP was Condition 3 but you know every young Marine would be Condition 1 or 2 depending on who, what and where.
When I was a Marine MP. One of the Marines on a post was removing his raincoat and his 1911A1 was pulled out of his Level I retention holster and discharged on the cement floor of his post.
Now SOP was Condition 3 but you know every young Marine would be Condition 1 or 2 depending on who, what and where.
I believe under the right series of events that it's possible. I believe it's a very rare event. I have never dropped a gun so none of my 1911's have been dropped. You would need a very long drop and a weak spring and a pretty soft primer to make it happen. Current guns use strong springs and light firing pins and many still use a Schwartz type safety .
Well, as always, chit happens.
The solutions (to a perhaps imaginary problem) all have their issues; always wondered why Colt's abandoned the Swartz system and went to the Series 80 arrangement, which can affect triggers...tho' the more recent iterations seem pretty benign.
Other comments?
Moon
Well, as always, chit happens.
The solutions (to a perhaps imaginary problem) all have their issues; always wondered why Colt's abandoned the Swartz system and went to the Series 80 arrangement, which can affect triggers...tho' the more recent iterations seem pretty benign.
Other comments?
Moon
The series 80 is far superior to the Schwartz system, and really doesn't add much to the trigger pull when done right. My SW 1911 went click on several occasions because the grip safety was pressed just enough to clear the digger, but not disengage the FPS.
Colt abandoned the Swartz Safety because it was not mil-spec when WWII started.
It was another 35 years before they got interested in a firing pin block in the face of competition from other makes. I think the S80 is less expensive than true Swartz, maybe even less than the Kimber version. It also has the advantage of working more like the competition, few of which even has a grip safety.
S&W's firing pin obstruction, although grip safety actuated is not the Swartz design.
Kimber's is.
I bet Colt 1939 didn't have those timing problems described for Smith & Kimber. Better assembly and without the unintended consequences of a high hand hole beavertail.
They probably would now, so the S80 is probably better, if you just must.
CA has a very intensive series of drop tests in their effort to ban guns. Some 1911s failed the muzzle down drop but there are a lot that passed without firing pin blocking mechanisms. I don't know if they use lightweight fp or what but I have several post drop test 1911s that work fine and don't have any apparent change from the original 1911 pattern.
I prefer none. Ruger got around it by using an extremely light titanium firing pin, however that's supposed to work. If I have to have one, as in most of the Kimbers in my collection, I prefer the Swartz, to the Series 80 design, because the trigger never comes into play. The only negative for me, is that the rear sight has to be removed to make repairs if something goes wrong. I've never had a problem with any of these systems, but there's always that chance. I no longer compete, so if one does break down, I just put that gun back in the bag and finish with the other guns I have with me. I don't carry a 1911, because 3lbs of steel, brass and lead has its own set of disadvantages and I have no interest in the compact or aluminum framed models, so no issue there either.
No great issue with the Series 80 Colts, and I do have a Gold Cup Series 70 with what I presume is the Ti firing pin.
What was Kimber's notion of trapping the safety with the rear sight? Keep owners from futzing with it?
Moon
Banger, that is just the issue; how big a problem is it, actually, and why have some mfgs gone to a hell of a lot of trouble to 'fix' it? And that is why I asked in the first place.
Moon
I have 1911's with and without a drop safety "feature" - prefer the ones without as there is one less thing to go wrong/foul/interfere with the trigger.
When I replace the recoil springs I just replace the firing pin spring as well as they come together (I believe from Wolff) and am not worried about it.
I sometimes carry an Ithica GI 1911A1 with the only modifications being a Wilson 8rnd mag with the thin metal baseplate, an aftermarket barrel and a national Match barrel Bushing lapped to the barrel. And also I had a gunsmith do a trigger job on it. But when I heard about Ruger using a Titanium firing pin and a stiffer firing pin spring instead of a Series 80 system or a Schwartz safety, I thought it was a great idea, so I ordered the parts from Brownell's and put them in the gun.
It's such a simple modification I don't know why everyone doesn't do it. And I wouldn't buy a 1911 that had any other kind of drop safety system that is just one more thing to go wrong or interferes with the trigger pull.
With the mechanical firing pin safeties you have to push the plunger up to let the firing pin move forward. Thus with the ones I am aware of you can tell if a 1911 has one by locking the slide back and looking for a plunger. On the left a Colt Series 70 with no mechanical firing pin block. Next a Colt with the Series 80 system. Then a Kimber with an adaption of the old Colt Swartz system. On the right a S&W with its in house developed system.
And the tops of the frames in the same order showing the pins or levers used to push up the plunger and allow the firing pin to go forward.
Colt developed the Swartz system in the 1930s and it thankfully went away when WWII started. Kimber is the only company that uses a variation of it today. The pin is activated by pressing the grip safety. Colt developed the Series 80 system in the 80s. The lever is activated by pressing the trigger. In addition to Colt, SIG, Taurus, Para, and Remington plus probably others use this system. The S&W system was developed in house and the lever is activated by pressing the grip safety so it has that in common with the old Swarz system.
I am also a fan of the Titanium firin pin although they are not without problems. In addition to Ruger, Colt and S&W use them in newer 1911s without a mechanical firing pin safety.
Now all the plungers in the slides have springs and one reason I do not like the Kimber Swartz like system is you have to remove the rear sight to replace the plunger spring.
Dakota, what problem do you see with the Ti firing pin?
Moon
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