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Fixed Sights Shoot Point Of Aim

4K views 17 replies 16 participants last post by  sciolist 
#1 ·
When I first began reading about firearms in the mid 1950s, the gun writer advice was to always get adjustable sights on a hand gun.

I had no one to go to for information on my gun interests so I depended exclusively on gun magazines and catalogs, gun annuals, and any other gun related printed matter that came my way.

I've handled and shot hundreds of guns. Only rarely have I had to adjust fixed sight handguns to achieve hits roughly at my point of aim. Guns made for WWI and WWII, commercial automatics and revolvers, single shot pistols, all seem to be factory regulated to impact at my approximate point of aim at, say, 20 to 30 yards. For all practical purposes, they need no adjustment for my use.

I've had target guns with finely adjustable front and back sights, barrel weights, adjustable triggers, orthopedic grips, everything but a wind vane, but the fixed-sight guns are, for me, generally on target.

I assure you, the groups are not as small as I'd like with some of these less pedigreed firearms, but the general point-of-aim rule has held for me.

This week I was shooting a .38 Special S&W 442. Its sights are a raised ramp front and a groove in the top strap. It, too, was minute-of-Coke-can out to 25 yards with wad cutters and 125 grain gun show "cowboy" polymer coated bullet reloads.

Can anyone here tell me how guns are manufactured to achieve this coincidence of
sight picture and bullet strike?
 
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#2 · (Edited)
I dont have the answer, but I do have a S&W 642 and I can assure you I wont be hitting a coke can at 25 yards with it on even a 50-50 basis. I would do well to do that at 7 yards with that gun.

I am also about 50-50 on getting fixed sight guns that hit point of aim. A new, out of the box Gen 4 Glock 21 and a Kimber Custom II both required taller front sights for me to avoid hitting nearly a foot high at 7-10 yards. At least on these two guns, swapping front sights isnt too big a deal. Would be a much bigger pain if you had a fixed sight revolver with the integral notch rear sight that had windage issues. I am sure there could be some situations you would just have to use "kentucky windage" and just deal with it.

If a guy always finds fixed sights on the money, he must be "living right" is all I can say.
 
#3 ·
Two of my three glocks have standard sights and they shoot to poa vertically. I don't know what bullet they are regulated for but they "work". I can say that 38 specials are regulated for 158 lead bullets at 750-800 fps. I have such a pistol (pre war heavy duty ). My 125 plus p load will shoot POA also (@25yards). It's a combination of bullet weight and velocity. You can lower bullet strike somewhat by using a lighter bullet or increasing velocity. Sometimes a combination of both is needed. Reverse for raising impact.
 
#6 ·
When I was a full time gunsmith I would mill off one side
of the front sight or turn the barrel in or out to adjust for
windage.

For elevation you can raise the POI by cutting the front sight
down. I have also replaced the front sight to get zero.

For me I like my handguns to shoot around one to two inches
high at 25 yards, depending on the load, that way you can
usually hold dead on out to 75 to 100 yards and never be off
very much. You just never know what you might get into.

Think about taking a hike in the mountains and you come
upon a big pot patch.

I test most of my handguns at long range just to see what
they will do, you would not believe what many are capable of,
even the small cheap ones.
 
#7 ·
all seem to be factory regulated to impact at my approximate point of aim at, say, 20 to 30 yards. For all practical purposes, they need no adjustment for my use. but the fixed-sight guns are, for me, generally on target. Can anyone here tell me how guns are manufactured to achieve this coincidence of sight picture and bullet strike?
It's no coincidence. Fixed sights are lined up with the bore. To test this, take a gun that will hit the X at 7 yds. Now measure the distance between the bore and sights at the front and rear. You will have lines that are parallel. If you adjust the rear sight so that same gun will 0 at 100 yds (let's use .45 acp since it will exaggerate, more), the lines will not be perfectly parallel like they were with the 7 yd 0. The gap between the lines will be greater at the rear than the front. If the WWI and WWII pistols were POA/POI at 20 or 30 yds, then I suppose there was some simple measurement they used for sight heights so those guns were 0'ed at that distance, but a bullet will go pretty straight for 20 to 30 yds, anyway, so the drop of 1" at that distance may not be significant.
 
#9 ·
I think it comes down to what your emphasis is as a shooter. There are shooters and hunters that have that need and can wring the difference out for better performance. I think for most gun owners focused on self defense carry fixed sights are the way to go.

Frankly, most shooters are more likely to mess up it up than get improvement. My first handgun was a S&W model 66 with adjustable sights, I would have been much better off with fixed sights because being a new shooter with a pistol I was not good enough to take advantage of them. I knew how they worked because I was not new to rifles but I would have been better off with fixed sights that were consistent and instead of fiddling with the sights realized the problem was me.
 
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#10 ·
I like the sight picture with adjustable sights. The first handgun I shot, and the one I shot most and enjoyed shooting most was a Colt Officers Model Special with adjustable sights. Then in the Air Force I was issued a Model 15 with target sights and the mould was set. I miss the days when Micro and other sight companies made steel adjustable sights for just about anything.
 
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#12 ·
Fixed sights are regulated to one type of ammunition. As long as you can live with that no sweat.
As to fixed sights being more durable that's true, too. But most folks are never going to be hard enough on a gun where they're a necessity. I always opt for adjustable when possible.
 
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#13 ·
Shoot enough with any gun and you'll get the point of impact.

The OCD bench rest guys can argue all they want. Bench rest is not for me except sighting in a scope.
 
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#14 · (Edited)
I've had (have) many fixed sight guns that do not shoot to point of aim. Some shoot right or left. Some shoot high or low. Some shoot a combination. Some, a few, shoot point of aim.

If it wasn't so big a undertaking I'd have adjustable sights on almost all my guns.

The problem with fixed sights is you have to remember where each one shoots. Oh yeah, I drift this gun left and aim for the bottom of the target, there I go :)
For sure.
And this can be a PITA if the guns haven't been shot in a year or two, or more.
 
#15 ·
Mine are for defense, so getting all lined up on sights likely isn't going to be realistic, anyway. When I practice, most of my shooting is not for precision marksmanship, but quick acquisition put several rounds in a 6" circle from 7-15 yards. Having perfect sights is kind of irrelevant.

I do check mine with a laser bore sight, and they are close enough.

I also usually run a target out to 25 yards to verify for myself what I can do at that distance, should there ever be a need, to understand my limitations. There I don't think the limitation is my sights, but me. Using a Viridian green laser on my G26, I can see that it's really hard to hold steady even before firing, so again the fixed sights aren't the issue.

If you are into precision marksmanship, then I assume your considerations are different.
 
#16 ·
Some of my guns you cut the bullseye in half, some you lollipop the center...

Doesn't make much diff to me as long as I hit the in the 6" target at 25ft in double taps.
It only makes a difference when slow shooting and someone not shooting back.
 
#17 · (Edited)
It's a nice morning for shooting, so I thought I would do a little experimenting.

I used 8 yards for a good "defense" distance.

I picked a 9mm American Tactical C92
(Turkish copy of the Beretta 92, excellent gun, I have about 5 or 6 9mm and .380).
This gun shoots 2/3 inches low and a inch or so left. Maybe one day I'll look into having adjustable sights installed.

Ten shots each target.
Slow fire using the sights.
A bit firing fast when point shooting.

Fun shooting. I plan on shooting the ATI more today. :)

There were two surprises.
The first is how poorly I did aimed slow fire,
and that I didn't do terrible fast firing point shooting. (I do very little point shooting).






.
 
#18 ·
I prefer fixed irons on carry and production guns, because they are less fragile and there isn't much variation in how they are used.

Different shooters want guns set up differently because they see differently, and also because of variations in ammo, where they want the gun zeroed, etc.

Some (nutty) people like FO front sights to print at the fiber. Most people want them to print a group directly above the post at 20 yards. Some people want the top of the post at the center of the 20 yard group, etc. And then there's 6:00 hold...

So you have to fix as many variables as practical to constants, and set the gun up the way you want it. If nothing changes, there should be nothing to adjust. Although... as your skill level increases you may find the sights print differently than you first thought they did.

My impression is that most OE sights are set up empirically to print right above the post at 20 yards with typical factory ammo.
 
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