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Is 10mm overrated?

36K views 297 replies 94 participants last post by  8X8 
#1 ·
This may ruffle some feathers, but is 10mm overrated?

I keep hearing around the internet, Youtube, almost everywhere it seems, etc. that 10mm is equivelant to 41 magnum, 357magnum and how people traded in their 44 magnum revolvers for Glock 20's in 10mm. I have nothing wrong with Glocks, obviously, I just don't see the hype to 10mm. I even have read about people in Alaska carrying 10mm in Glock 20's...and I just don't get it. Am I missing something?

When you compare the top end of 10mm and the top end of 357magnum, the 357magnum comes out on top. These are woods guns, so that means hard cast bullets, not hollow points. So let's compare, and leet's use Buffalo Bore as an example, they are apparently the hottest stuff you can get for people who don't handload, again, unless I'm missing something. BB's 220gr hard cast 10mm runs at 1,140ft/sec which equates to 635ft/lbs out of a Glock 20 4.6" barrel. BB's 180gr hard cast 357mag runs at 1,375ft/sec which equates to 756ft/lbs out of a 4 inch barrel. Sure, the 357magnum is marginally smaller and marginally lighter but from tests I've seen around and from my research, 357magnum should actually penetrate deeper than 10mm. People dont recommend carrying 357magnum for protection against grizzly bears, so why would people be carrying a round that has LESS energy than 357magnum?

41 magnum is miles above 10mm pushing a 265gr hard cast bullet at 1,310ft/sec and 1,010ft/lbs of energy.

44magnum, which is considered the low end of power for protection against large bears, pushes a 305gr hard cast bullet at 1,331ft/sec and 1,200ft/lbs. This is from Buffalo Bore. Underwood offers a 340gr hard cast +p+ 44 magnum load that pushes 1,425ft/sec and 1,533ft/lbs out of an unknown barrel length.

Am I missing something? I haven't found 10mm that's anymore powerful that Buffalo Bore and Underwood. I understand that having more rounds may make people think they're better protected, but that doesn't mean much if the rounds you have can't penetrate far enough to do enough damage to stop the threat. By that logic you might as well skip the 16 rounds of 10mm and just shoot the bear 100 times with a 22lr and hope for a lucky shot

Please inform me if I'm missing something here.
 
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#71 ·
Who's comparing a 10mm to a 44 mag? Not me. And I'm not comparing it to a rifle either and I don't think anyone else is. And in Grizzly or Brown Bear country, a rifle is probably what you should carry, something like a (JM marked, pre-safety) Marlin 45/70.

But the 10mm does compare to a 357 mag with 180 grain bullets except that for the same weight the smaller diameter bullet will penetrate deeper.
Weekend homework assignment:Re-read each post in this thread, beginning with the OP, where .44 magnum enters the discussion. I'll expect a full report on my desk on Monday. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
Hint:The rifle comes in at the 5th post. That would be the Marlin lever action.
 
#72 ·
Weekend homework assignment:Re-read each post in this thread, beginning with the OP, where .44 magnum enters the discussion. I'll expect a full report on my desk on Monday. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Hint:The rifle comes in at the 5th post. That would be the Marlin lever action.
So anything that's mentioned throughout the thread becomes the topic because you say so? Sorry, no report. I'm dropping out of school.
 
#73 ·
No, it is what it is, a higher velocity 40, that will shoot heavier bullets, with gusto. If you find yourself needing to shoot at 100 yards, bring a rifle, but a 10 drops less at that distance than the 45, and will deliver freight with more gusto than the 40. If I'm going in harms way, and have a choice, it's one of my G20s I want on me, and a rifle.
 
#75 ·
Really though, is a speedy reload going to be a huge advantage in a trail gun? Not likely. You'll fight off your animal attack with what you have. Against people, yes, 10mm wins on most levels but raw power.
But when your .357 or .44 revolver is empty, your lighter-weight Glock 20 has up to 10 more rounds already loaded.
 
#76 ·
Again we are talking woods/trail gun. Unless you hike in woods where dope cartels farm, the higher cap of a semi isn't as big a deal. When dealing with large animals, I will take power over ammo cap. I know I will land 1-2 good hits, I want the most power I Can manage, which is a 4" 44mag.
 
#81 ·
I choose a 10mm S&W for a first handgun for flexibility, not for woods defense. I like the way a 3rd gen Smith filled my hand.

If the objective was critter defense a .44/.41/.357 mag revo would have been in order.

People born in the tupperware pistol era see the traditional revolver as an anachronism. I think they don't realize that autos are limited by the size of the cartridge able to fit in the grip. Not so with wheel guns.
 
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#86 ·
Lots of truth here, a good gp 100 six inch will beat anything
I have seen in a 10mm.

Most don't know what the 357 can do, even a 4'' will beat the
10mm and I have never had a
FTF, FTE, Stove pipe or anything like that, sure have with my
two G 20 s though.

You can load shot loads, a 76 gr lead ball to six hundred fps
for small game and never have feeding problems.

Find a factory load or a factory data reload that can beat this,

http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm

With a 6" barrel,

Buffalo Bore 180-grain .357 Magnum, Hawes revolver

Velocity (fps)
1510 1504 1536 1485 1506
Average 1508 fps - Standard Deviation 18.4

A 4.5'' barrel will do 1400 fps.

I never have smiles on my brass either in the 357 like
I have with factory 10mm ammo.

Many buy AM barrels for the 10mm with more support
to raise pressure
to get more power, in the 357 you just need to buy
a GP 100 or so many others that are made for the
higher pressure.

Look at all the problems and the power from some 10mm
Factory loads I have had, from an old post.

This is from one of my old posts, it is my results with some
10mm UW loads,

I have shot and chronoed the UW 180, 200 and 220gr in both the g20 SF and
the gen4, they were all with the 800X powder.

The 180gr TMJ, the stock SF had one nose down in the magazine jam in ten shots,
fps was 1262, with the 6.6'' LW barrel and ten shots, no jams and 1364fps, with the
gen 4 g20 fifteen shots no jams and 1270fps, with the g 30 and the g29 LW barrel
no jams in ten shots and 1272fps, will get some more of this good stuff.

The 200gr TMJ had three nose to left of chamber jams on the stock gen 4 in ten
shots, ave fps was 1138fps, the stock SF had one nose to left of chamber
in ten shots, fps 1146, with the 6.6''LW barrel, NO JAMS in 10 shots, fps 1221,
with the g30 with the LW 4.6'' g29 barrel one nose down in the magazine jam,
will not get this ammo any more, not enough power and jams.

I did have a 22# RSA in the g30 and think the stock may have done better.

With the UW 220gr cast in the SF G20 no jams and 1128fps and no smiles,
gen4 g20 no jams, 1165fps and big smiles, not good, with the G30 with the
LW g29 4.6'' barrel 1194fps with no jams and no smiles and super accurate,
with the 6.6'' LW barrel 1230 fps no jams and no smiles.

The OEM barrels leaded bad and I would not shoot them with the UW 220gr
cast loads anymore.

The LW barrels have been more reliable and more accurate than the stock
barrels in both the g20 SF and the gen 4 and even in the G30 with the LW 4.6'' barrel

I believe that the extra weight of the 6.6'' barrel slows the slide down
enough to make the gun more reliable, JMHO.
====================================================================================

For the record I do like the G20 and the 10mm and the G21 too,
I still have four Glocks that I shoot the 10mm in with many barrels,
they are some of the most versatile guns you can get.

I also still have nineteen 357s and know what you can get from
them.

I reload and cast boolits for all of them.

This guy does not need ten or fifteen shots to stop
big animals, I have many of these revolvers too.

Does anyone think he needed a rifle?



Some YT vids need watched over a few times, that is
one of them.
 
#84 ·
Back to 10mms...

If I knew I were going to be charged by a bear, my first choice would be a heavy revolver (if I couldn't have a 12 gauge with slugs or a .338 magnum).

That having been said, the carryability of the G20 goes a long way.

A coworker was doing the Appalachian trail hike. He said him and his buddies were advised to bring a handgun along. The handgun wasn't for bear, it was for problems with two legged predators that were ongoing along the trail. This is usually the first issue. I personally have run into a few bear on the trail. They didn't bother me and I didn't bother them. The 10mm makes a nice "all around" package for both human protection and the possibility of a nasty large animal encounter.
 
#89 ·
The Underwood .357 Sig loads feel like 10mm when fired through my Glock 20 with LW 357 conversion barrel. They are some hot loads.
Neither the 10 or 357 Sig were intended for hunting large animals but both have the power to deal with most of what will be encountered in the woods, both are excellent trail and camp guns.
 
#90 ·
I do not have a 10 mm Glock, but you could make the point it is the do all caliber. If you wanted one pistol for self defense, hunting and protection from smaller predators than Brown Bear then it is a good choice imo. I do not hunt with a pistol and the biggest 4 legged threats are coyotes around here, so I carry a Glock 19.
 
#91 ·
Can't disagree. Last time I went hunting, my backup/trespasser handgun was a 4.6" Ruger Vaquero .44 Mag., but I believe in looking cool over capacity and revolvers are cooler.
I think a lot of 10mm guys feel the power in the 10mm is quite alot, but many have never taken the time to learn the 44mag or better yet, hvy 45colt loads. So now i feel a test coming on, penetration & high speed accuracy. Is a 10% larger, 20-25% heavier bullet worth the recoil in a trail gun?
The oft over looked issue of any trail gun is versatility. No semi auto can match versatility of a magnum rev. You can go mild to wild with just an ammo swap. Not important to many, but important to some of us.
 
#92 ·
For a trail gun, with a dangerous animal charging, maybe you'd get two shots off at most. Usually, probably only one. If you were able to climb a tree, you could evade many four legged predators, but not all. It would buy you time to fire more shots, and force the animal attacking you into a narrower funnel, leading with its head.

However, given the nearly indisputable fact that humans remain the most dangerous trail animal to be encountered, the 10mm in a lightweight platform shines. Bear in mind, you might have to literally fight your way back to civilization. You might be able to see your attackers, and maybe not. More rounds is always better than fewer, especially when far from backup.

This type is still the most dangerous animal you'll meet in the woods:
 
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#93 ·
This is my exact dedicated woods carry handgun.




Is it heavier than a Glock 20? Yes, but on the hip the perceived weight is nothing, and for the hiking and camping I do again - nothing. It would make a difference in overall load to a back packer that is budgeting every ounce on their full load out.
I do enjoy getting out into some of the same places as the seriously dangerous game makes their living and call home. I have never seen a bear or mountain lion in the wild, but who knows how many bears I have been unwittingly within 50 yards of, or how many lions I have walked right under.
Also I have never had any problems with people, but I am a good natured easy going kind a guy.:cheers:
 
#95 ·
This is my exact dedicated woods carry handgun.




Is it heavier than a Glock 20? Yes, but on the hip the perceived weight is nothing, and for the hiking and camping I do again - nothing. It would make a difference in overall load to a back packer that is budgeting every ounce on their full load out.
I do enjoy getting out into some of the same places as the seriously dangerous game makes their living and call home. I have never seen a bear or mountain lion in the wild, but who knows how many bears I have been unwittingly within 50 yards of, or how many lions I have walked right under.
Also I have never had any problems with people, but I am a good natured easy going kind a guy.:cheers:
Kinda been thinking of cutting one of my SRHs down to
that.

Sure is nice.
 
#108 ·
And the idiot let the moose get to within about 6 feet. He was hunting that moose and got himself into trouble. Not even comparable and I have zero sympathy. He is responsible for getting himself in that situation. Would you let a bear get that close on purpose? Then you get what you deserve!
 
#101 ·
I am a big lover of the 454 too but if you get the right 44
it is kinda close to a 454, think Ruger RH/SRH, they have
a longer and much stronger cylinder than the m29 and SBH,
and like the SBH they can take a lot of pounding.

Heavy .44 Magnum +P+ Ammo - 340 gr. Hard Cast, L.F.N. - G.C.
(1,478 fps/M.E. 1,649 ft. lbs.)
20 Round Box


https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=54

I got one of the JDJ 330gr molds in the mid 80s, with COWWs
it cast 335gr, would shoot it at 1450 FPS in the 7.5'' SBH, the
mold came with pressure tested load data.

This has a version of that boolit mold at 320 grains with
a G/C,

http://www.lasc.us/AfricanHunt-CastBullets.htm#loaddata

Here is some data showing the 44 shooting a 310 gr boolit
at 1521 fps, not a full 454 but still good.

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/310/357-44_Bain_Davis/Handloader_274_Oct_2011.pdf

I do like the 454 better, still have six of them, but also still
have four 44 RH/SRHs.
 
#102 ·
You are correct I never fired any of the buffalo bore heavy 44 Mag loads in the Smith because of their reputation for not being able to hold up to the abuse.

I am sure those buffalo bore 44 loads are quite impressive in guns designed to handle them.

Also Rugers out of the box double action trigger pull is better. The double action trigger on the Smith I had caused me to have like 20 inch groups at 15 yards mostly low right, with the Ruger I can keep them much more centered.
 
#104 ·
You don't need near over pressure loads to make the 44mag or 45colt a stopper. You do need over pressure loads for the 10mm. Not much meat will stop a 300gr 44/45 solid @ a mere 1250fps. In my own tests against my stopping rilfe, a 404 Jeffery, they actually dig a bit deeper than the 400gr softs @ 2200fps. Obviously no contest when switching to solids, but your heavy trail gun should have solids in the bear country jamboree.
 
#103 · (Edited)
The dude with the charging moose was sure able to fire more than two rounds. Check out the video.
I hate the video because it gives a notion that is how animal attack occur. When talking carnivores, you won't likely see them & they will come much much faster. Plus you shoot an animal at any distance but off your boots, you are likely in for a fine. Hard to articulate any animal is a threat at 20yds. Potential yes, but actual threat, no. I have been within 20-25yds of most big or small animals that may hurt me, in the case of coyotes, 20ft, none have attacked though. Of course I didn't provoke a charge either. Which the guys in the video sort of did.
 
#105 ·
I ag


I agree the video with the 10 mm is a poor example of how an animal attack may happen. And how people may take that as proof that a 10mm is the ultimate animal stopper. That moose seemed unsure at best and it's charges were half hearted at best. But it wasn't intimidated into backing down.

I think the educational value of the video is the fact that moose in general have no fear of man, even one standing full height on a snowmobile. Both wanted to stay on the trail, and that could have ended badly for the human just as easily if that moose were more mature and more determined on the first charge. Also the guy should have had the gun in hand much quicker. Or in my opinion he should have pulled off the trail, and had gun in hand just in case.
 
#119 ·
Everyone needs to remember one thing: NO HANDGUN (or rifle)will always drop a large mammal like a bear or a moose. Bigger (and more powerful) is better but not a guarantee.

A second consideration is that you WILL NOT get more than a single shot in most cases (I know, been there, done that, got the underwear!). You Keyboard Kommandos can speculate all you want but no two sets of circumstances will be the same.

For most cases, the 357 Sig will be sufficient, or even better. The 40 S&W will be pretty much the same==you decide which is better for you based on the differences (real or imagined). No one disputes, the 10mm is better for bigger stuff. How much better is for you to decide. Yes, a hard cast 45 Colt, 44 Mag or 454 will produce better results on game IF YOU CAN SHOOT IT!

The above is based on over 50 years of shooting, hunting and guiding, a Master's Degree in Biology, together with almost 20 years of professional biology work experience, including several years of researching bear behavior. Take it or leave it!
 
#121 ·
They dont seal the area around the throat causing erosion, esoecially with certain powders. I wore a forcing cone out on my RSBH shooting quit a few 1000 rds in met sil & varmint hunting. A lead bullet, coated or lubed, will seal the throat ate better, less flame cutting. One reason my magnums never see jacketed bullets. Cost is the other. Nothing a good cast bullet can't do as well as jacketed, even in hollow point form. This is my hunting bullet. I can control the amount of expansion by alloy & vel & hp shape/depth. I have since removed the gas check, not needed under 1400fps or so.
While I think experimenting and casting my own would be fun. I worry about lead vapor exposure. So I would probably buy some off the shelve cast bullets. I will go for the coated if available.
 
#122 ·
I have been casting & shooting lead bullets for 40yrs now. My last lead level check was in single digits. You don't get lead fumes from casting bullets, the heat never gets high enough. Just wash your hands after handling.
 
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