First, let me preface that this is not a caliber debate. Rather, it is my curiosity of the difference between three most popular calibers in self-defense.
All the recent ballistic tests showing with the modern bullet designs, the ballistic gelatin tests showing penetrations are relative similar between 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP. Thus, many law-enforcement agencies are embracing the 9mm caliber.
However, as all competition shooters know that when it comes down to knock down power of the pepper poppers, the larger/major caliber rounds will have more power and take down the popper faster. So, 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP all have similar penetration in ballistic gelatin (presumably in body issue), how do we account for the increase knock down power in 40 S&W and 45 ACP in self-defense shooting?
The NYPD has more cops (by a huge amount) than any other LE agency, including the various federal agencies. One of the effects of this is that rarely do uniformed officers work alone. So when the SHTF, there's at least two cops with two guns shooting back (and sometimes significantly more.) I think this is a much bigger factor than the round they're shooting. And there've been no shortage of NYPD officers killed in the line of duty either.
The New York Police Department gets into more shootings than almost any other police department, and it issues Speer Gold Dot 124 grain 9mm +P. The streets aren't littered with dead cops as a result of failures of that caliber or cartridge. A lot has changed since 1986, thankfully. We have a large number of highly effective calibers, bullets, and handguns, and a careful selection of any of them will serve you well.
I think the original point was that the NYPD had a lower death rate than other PDs despite staying with 9mm.
My points are that no one is actually providing statistics to back that up, and that even if it's true, there are a myriad of other reasons why that would be the case before round/ammo selection would come into play.
I think the original point was that the NYPD had a lower death rate than other PDs despite staying with 9mm.
My points are that no one is actually providing statistics to back that up, and that even if it's true, there are a myriad of other reasons why that would be the case before round/ammo selection would come into play.
But the obvious takeaway is that there is no discernible disadvantage recognized by major police agencies that issue 9mm to their tens of thousands of officers. If it ain't seen on the street, it probably ain't there.
1 correctly placed shot and a .22 will do the trick. I have been taught and trained, that it is not how many you fire or what type you fire as long as you hit the target correctly. Just need the shot to stop the threat.
A gun fight isn't like shooting on a square range. The target isn't hanging there at seven yards waiting on you to shoot it at your leisure. It's moving, and, very shooting at you, trying to stab you, or otherwise do you bodily harm (otherwise you have no business shooting at it.) You should also likely be moving, and not taking your time trying trying to line up the perfect shot. None of this lends itself to perfect placement. You need to take the shots you can get, however and whenever you get them. The bullet being able to do the maximum damage may help a marginal hit stop the attack.
1 correctly placed shot and a .22 will do the trick. I have been taught and trained, that it is not how many you fire or what type you fire as long as you hit the target correctly. Just need the shot to stop the threat.
Which is why .45 ACP begins with a tremendous advantage. It's already the size of a partially expanded .40 S&W, .357 SIG, or 9mm. Your bullets may not expand as hoped. But everything's a tradeoff. Capacity or size. Or, a round that compromises on both, in the middle. You might only get one hit. Then again, you might have to hit multiple times. We're all grasping in the dark, at something we cannot see. If it does happen, it will be too late to modify our choice, so fight with what you've brought.
I'm with you on .45 vs 9mm. Vs .40, not so much. And I don't like small .45s. .45 ACP rounds are designed around 5" barrels. Once you get under 4", I worry they don't get enough velocity to open up. 9mm and .40 are designed around 4" barrels, and do better going smaller.
Which is why .45 ACP begins with a tremendous advantage. It's already the size of a partially expanded .40 S&W, .357 SIG, or 9mm. Your bullets may not expand as hoped.
This is true, but we're not in a gunfight yet. We're sitting behind our computers, calmly deliberating what's the better set up. Now's the time to question everything.
But everything's a tradeoff. Capacity or size. Or, a round that compromises on both, in the middle. You might only get one hit. Then again, you might have to hit multiple times. We're all grasping in the dark, at something we cannot see. If it does happen, it will be too late to modify our choice, so fight with what you've brought.
Actually, if we're talking about the smaller end of the non-mousegun EDC spectrum, I agree. For 6-7 shot 3-3.5" barrel auto, 9mm is likely the best choice. When we get to 4" barrel 13-15 shot double stacks, I like .40.
I can't get behind 5-shot .38s. For the same size and shootability, I'd rather have a small 9mm auto.
So close or so much better, which is it? :drunk:For me it is gun specific. I shoot a 1911 better than any Glock 9mm, but that is the gun, not the round. A shot timer & paper targets don't lie.
1.0 is my best time on my 17, 1.2 with the 21SF , draw and pull. BUT my accuracy is always better with my 21SF.
I just shoot 45acp better, and with the times being so close and accuracy favoring 45acp it makes it a simple choice.
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