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Should I be afraid after seeing these Hydra Shok ballistics tests?

17K views 109 replies 58 participants last post by  unit1069 
#1 ·
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#70 ·
Ever since I came across a mama black bear with 2 cubs at my secret fishing spot and I was carrying my G26 I switched to carrying10mm or 45super. Now I have a G43 that I ocassionaly carry with the 124grain +p+ hydrashoks (it's better than carrying nothing) I don't know what to load it with now. These are my current options.

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#71 · (Edited)
Ever since I came across a mama black bear with 2 cubs at my secret fishing spot and I was carrying my G26 I switched to carrying10mm or 45super. Now I have a G43 that I ocassionaly carry with the 124grain +p+ hydrashoks (it's better than carrying nothing) I don't know what to load it with now. These are my current options.

View attachment 300528
Federal HST 147 gr standard pressure is in all my 9mm defensive guns.
Seems to always test extremely well and is gaining a good street reputation.
Plus it's soft shooting and very accurate in my guns.

Before that carried Speer GDHP 124 +P.
The Speer load has been sort of the Gold Standard for 9mm in recent years.
NYPD has been very happy with real street results using that load.

Not that I base all my ammo choices on balistic testing alone.
But it's good info to add in the mix.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Good Luck!
 
#75 ·
That's why when I discovered I still had several hundreds of Hydra-Shok rounds from the 90's (9, .45 ACP & .44 Magnum) in some storage bins and boxes, I decided to keep them for "backup", as well. ;)
 
#78 ·
It always amazed and amused me to see firearms instructors not willing to stand on the line with their fellow officers and shoot the courses. For me, it was always an issue of pride to be the top score, or at least in contention. You have to do it. If you don't, why should the guys listen to anything you say? If they see that, "hey, that guy can really shoot", you get respect.
 
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#80 · (Edited)
I remember when some of our newest wave of younger firearms instructors started coming back from whatever basic instructor's schools we could schedule for them, and I started hearing that they'd been told that as instructors, they should be careful to never shoot in front of the people they were teaching. WTH??

Apparently, it seems there was a new philosophy going around that new instructors were being told that they ought not risk diminishing whatever it might be they were teaching, if they couldn't do it well, themselves, in front of the people they were teaching.

Imagine my surprise.

My response was that while being able to teach was one set of skills, and being able to diagnose the problems of others was another set of skills ... but they still ought to be able to demonstrate anything they were teaching, and be able to do so in at least an above average manner. If they couldn't demonstrate what they wanted others to do, how did they expect others to learn to do it, let alone have others develop confidence in them as instructors?!?

Some eagerly went downrange and were willing to learn and work hard to develop their skills as shooters, as well as instructors.

I always considered becoming an experienced firearms instructor to be an apprenticeship program. I spent quite a few years under the observation and mentorship of the head instructor.

Some folks seem to think that coming back from an instructor school means you're suddenly an experienced and seasoned instructor. Not quite. ;)
 
#79 ·
Because some of them can't shoot. They pretend to shoot. My PD was lucky to have some guys that could actually shoot and were cool to work with.

Granted, they were about 10 years behind on tactics, but somehow that changed. I think it was the influx of guys coming to the PD that had a lot of advanced firearms training to begin with.
 
#81 ·
Ever since I came across a mama black bear with 2 cubs at my secret fishing spot and I was carrying my G26 I switched to carrying10mm or 45super. Now I have a G43 that I ocassionaly carry with the 124grain +p+ hydrashoks (it's better than carrying nothing) I don't know what to load it with now. These are my current options.

View attachment 300528
When you go back to that spot, maybe carry a rifle.
 
#89 ·
#90 · (Edited)
Just some comments ...

Like a previous poster (OAF?) mentioned, I also am not concerned at all about carrying the older technology Golden Saber's (non-bonded) in my carry guns. In my G26 (124 gr +P) and G23 (165 gr) platforms, Golden Saber always seems to group ~ 20% tighter (multiple 5 shot groups, 25 yards, bag rest) than the comparable 165 gr HST's or even the 180 gr. HST. (Both function very well in all guns as a 1st criteria!) And the gel tests on the GS's these 2 loads look good and, although I'm not in that environment, had not heard anything bad reported on street creds on the Golden Saber.

Only in my M&P full size .40's do I find the GS 165 gr one of the poorer grouping loads and the HST 180 gr weight grouping better than GS's. On that platform the HST 180's are a close 3rd to Hornady Critical Duty (175 gr) and Defense (165 gr) loads for group consistency. (But never tried/had any GS 180 gr. to see if it is a bullet weight effect.)
 
#92 ·
No doubt most GT members know more about this than I do, but I've read considerable testaments over the past decade that the post in the Hydra-Shok bullet actually inhibited the round's mushrooming effect; and that as soon as a light bulb in one of ATK's ballistics technician's head said to remove the post the incredible HST was the end result.

I wouldn't throw away your Hydra-Shok rounds but after securing a good supply of better (and proven) designed ammo I did eventually shoot up most of my old-style JHP self-defense rounds that were loaded to the same specs as the new ones.
 
#93 ·
The post, as originally designed by Tom Burczynski in the 70's, was in a soft all-lead bullet, and the post had a noticeable angle to the sides. I used to have the all-lead Hydra-Shok loads in both .38 Spl and .45 ACP. If I recall correctly, the angle of the sides of the posts were different according to caliber, to optimize fluidic forces acting on the posts, directed outward against the inside of the nose cavities, to maximize expansion.

Federal/ATK later licensed/adopted the Hydra-Shok design in the late 80's, using a jacketed bullet design instead of the previous all-lead bullet design. I remember looking inside the nose cavities of the new Federal Hydra-Shoks and noticing how different the posts were compared to my original Hydra-Shok Corporation Scorpian loads. They were much thinner and also straighter, to the naked eye.

It was later observed that the jacketed Hydra-shok JHP's could have their nose cavities plugged by materials (like enough dense cloth), which basically neutralized the ability of the posts to direct fluids outward against the cavity walls and which could prevent desired expansion. Since the bullets were no longer soft all-lead, the nose cavities could better resist deformation when encountering feed ramps (although I remember reading about at least one revision of the Federal .45 Hydra-Shok, supposedly done to allow better feeding in older .45's). I lost track of the revisions and changes of the Federal Hydra-Shok design sometimes discussed, but they eventually decided to keep the line in the mid-2000's (according to articles), as well as their HST line (which became the low cost LE ammunition line).

Basically, when the Hydra-Shok nose cavities didn't get plugged, the design worked to aid expansion, but the post of the jacketed bullets aren't quite the same as the posts used in the original all-lead bullets. The soft all-lead .45 Hydra-Shoks could experience deformed nose cavities during feeding, but that same softness, huge post and ease of being deformed earned them a reputation for huge expansion back in the day (if the gun would feed them).
 
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#94 ·
One of our sons is a surgeon and in his duties has treated hundreds of gunshot wounds in a certain urban eastern city. He is a shooter, fisherman, bowhunter, and has taken many animals in a couple of continents. He brings a country approach to his medical work now in Montana.

I asked him once what he learned about treating gunshot wounds. He mentioned the fact that bullets impacting large bones create secondary fragments and he spent a lot of time in the surgery tracing down the "leaks" caused by these fragments. He did say that he has seen people get it done with a .22lr but if you want to be more sure a .40 or a .45ACP was the way to go. They created more leek damage that needed his attention and he does carry a .40 EDC.

There is more than one "test" of pistol ammo on the internet and not all of them agree as to the outcome. The gel test seem to me to be applicable if you are shooting somebody wearing a swimming suit so I pay more attention to the get block shooting test where there is some fabric involved and then look at many, not just one to see if they converge towards a particular brand. I like HST, Gold Dots, GD2, and the Sig V-crown for those reasons. I wouldn't go out and buy Hydro Shock rounds now as I would look to those mentioned but wouldn't necessarily throw out any if I had some nor worry too much about their abilities.
 
#99 ·
I typically load Federal Hydra Shok (9mm, JHP, 124g) in my carry and nightstand guns. An old personal defense standby for many, right? But the results of Lucky Gunner's ballistic testing is worrisome: 9mm Ammo - 124 gr Hydra Shok JHP - Federal Ammunition - 20 Rounds

This image particularly bothered me, should it? NO SPREAD AT ALL ON TWO ROUNDS!

With HST and Gold Dots available I have little interest in the Hydra Shoks. Then there is the barrier blind Underwood XD line of ammo that eliminates the need for HP comparisons of any type.
 
#101 ·
I have a hunch that these just might work in a pinch. His results were from a 5" bbl.

View attachment 1201956
The HST is an example of the current JHP's that have earned an enviable reputation, granted.

Even back in the early 2000's, though, we hosted a gel 'test' event where the Winchester Ranger SXT of that period exhibited good expansion in denim-covered organic gel when fired out of a 3.25" barrel, and the recorded velocity was only 802fps. (It's been revised at least once since then, though, and the last revision was reported to keep the jacket expansion from folding all the way over, giving it more of a 'starfish' appearance, or, 'wide and strong' as described in the online LE catalog.

Didn't get around to being able to test the latest revision in such a short barreled .45, at that reduced velocity, though it also claims "Aids in maximizing upset in full-size and compact firearms". The pics of the factory gel testing on Pg 15 is impressive, though.

I still mostly carry either 230gr Rem GS and Fed HST in my smaller .45's, since the standard pressure RA45T has some 'robust' felt recoil, and the RA45TP +P is really robust. ;) Not surprising, since Winchester claims their standard pressure RA45T produces 935fps, and their RA45TP +P hits 990fps. Compare that to the other major American ammo makers, and it's rather respectable ... but it comes at the cost of some increased felt recoil and muzzle blast.
 
#106 ·
That's what I decided to do with several hundred of the 90's vintage 147gr 9mm and 230gr .45ACP Hydra-Shoks I discovered I'd packed away, when I found them while sorting through some old ammo cans a couple years ago. Thinking back on it, I vaguely remembered putting them away for rainy day off-duty use back then, since they were relatively inexpensive (and I had a fair amount of disposable OT money to splurge in ammo).

I also came across some plastic boxes of a couple hundred rounds each of Hydra-Shok, El Dorado Starefire and Winchester STHP .44MAG from that time frame, since that was when I still sometimes carried .44MAG off-duty and took advantage of sales on a lot of .44MAG ammo. I can't remember the last time I carried .44MAG, though, so it'll remain tucked away against future rainy days when I feel like breaking out the .44's for some nostalgic purpose.
 
#109 · (Edited)
Bullet designs seem to get tweaked every other year or so. Still, the older 2016 vintage HS in 9mm was never a good design. The hp was too small for the post to be an advantage. It wotked ok on the larger 45 but I never thought the 9mm HS was worth a crap.
 
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