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+P Ammo in small 9mm guns ?

13K views 121 replies 42 participants last post by  SCmasterblaster 
#1 ·
After searching high and low, mostly low, for a small compact 9mm for CC and moving through a couple of misdirects I bought a Ruger LC9s Pro and found the weight attractive for CC carry. About 250 rounds later I continued to be impressed with the trigger weight and decent accuracy from this pistol. I then boldly decided to make this shooter into a power house and started searching for some +P loads to boost performance, especially for use in the woods.

I was running some HST +P 147g loads and some Buffalo Bore 147+P Outdoorsman loads through it out in the desert to see what the accuracy and handling would be with those loads. After about 10 rounds of a mixture of those loads, the RSA broke and the slide jammed. A quick call to Ruger resulted in a prepaid label to my printer and off the gun went. It was returned yesterday, thanks to the excellent service of Ruger's CS department, with the note that Ruger replaced the RSA and a note not to feed this pistol a steady diet of +P loads. I was thinking that 10 rounds, even if shot consecutively would not meet the threshold of a steady diet!!!! My error. I ran through a bunch of 124/125 factory rounds and the pistol is functioning perfectly now and that is the only ammo I will shoot through it in the future.

I am even more impressed with the durability and design of the Glock pistols and willingly have them on my buy list in the future. While they may be "blocky" and heavier they handle this type of ammo all day long even on a "steady diet".

Now, more than ever, it makes me mad that I sold my G26 gen 2, but still have the G27 to carry.

Any other experiences with these small 9mm's failure to handle heavy weight +P ammo?
 
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#3 ·
My feeling is you should carry the most powerful cartridge possible for personal protection. Carry weapons shouldn't be used to hammer countless rounds at the range. They're meant to be reliable and effective for that moment they are needed. And while I always empty my carry mag when I go shooting, I wouldn't do much more than that.

My point is: Yes, +P. I think most modern 9mm pistols can handle it if they aren't running thousands of rounds through them.
 
#6 ·
I too shoot a steady diet of +P 9mm from my Glock 43. Not exactly super small 9mm, but smaller than my G26 (especially when carrying IWB).

The gun doesn't seem to mind it and frankly, while I can tell the difference in recoil and blast from the +P over the normal 9mm loads, it certainly isn't unpleasant, not like snubby .357M kind of stuff at all.
 
#9 ·
I've shot my G43 several hundred rds and most of that has been Federal 9BPLE (115 gr +P+).
Stings my hand but doesn't seem to hurt the gun.

If the G43 was my only 9mm, I would look for a standard pressure load that expands well from the short barrel; that would be easier on the gun and my hand. But my primary 9 millie is a G19 and the 9BPLE is no big deal in that gun. I do not want to be juggling two different types of 9mm carry ammo.

AFAIK, no manufacturer recommends +P+ in their guns because there is no standard for it, the pressures can be whatever the ammo maker is gutsy or dumb enough to produce. But various police departments have been shooting truckloads of Win & Fed 115 gr +P+ in all sorts of guns, for decades. Works just fine.
 
#14 ·
Isn't there some point of diminishing returns, though? With shorter barrels, it seems that the gain in velocity can be almost negligible. I just use standard pressure HST 147g in my P938. I do use +p+ in my G17, though.
 
#15 ·
Just say no to +p+

I can push 9mm to the 1300+ fps of the +p+ specs with a few of the powders that I reload with. But why? The extra wear is not worth it to me. Have you ever seen a totally shot out Browning HP in less than 5k rounds? I had one when I was loading to push velocity...
 
#17 ·
I'm going to carry the hottest cartridge necessary to meet or exceed FBI standards for penetration, and I suggest everyone else does so no matter how small their pistol is.

If you're concerned about wearing the gun out, just don't shoot so much of the hot stuff. I have no doubt most mass-produced 9mm subcompact can handle thousands of rounds of +P without a problem.

Taking one to the range every week to beat the snot out of it with hot boutique ammo wouldn't even be fun and would be very expensive.

You want to pound rounds with your subcompact? Buy some powder puff blazer brass. Problem solved, and we all get our cake and eat it, too.
 
#19 ·
I'm going to carry the hottest cartridge necessary to meet or exceed FBI standards for penetration, and I suggest everyone else does so no matter how small their pistol is.
What about reliability?

The last time I looked at using BB and UW was for 10mm ammo that was hotter than the 40 S&W power level stuff some of the big companies produce. Looking online I saw a lot of complaints from people that had to switch to stronger springs and make modifications before the boutique ammo was reliable in their guns. Stock Glocks usually worked OK but not always. There is no special powder that lets small manufacturers load to higher velocity. They just use more powder. Guns are designed to work with standard ammo, when you greatly exceed normal pressure curves you sacrifice both reliability and gun longevity. Glocks typically have a surplus of both but if you are riding the absolute upper limit of what is reliable any small variation or change in grip could result in a failure. If the ammo that always works when you fire it with a firm two handed grip at the range fails to feed when you are firing it one handed at an odd angle at an attacker you are fending off with your other hand it does not matter how powerful it is.

The OP's gun broke after 10 rounds. Any ammo that has a failure rate of 10% is a very poor choice. If he had run a single magazine through the gun and declared it good enough for carry that failure could have happened the first time he really needed the gun.
 
#20 ·
It seems to me that 124 HST's, 147 HST's, 124 gr. Golden Saber's, 124 gr. Gold Dot's, all standard pressure, appear to work well from short barrels in any test I've ever seen. This new Micro 150 grain HST? Looks like it works excellently in short barrels as well. So why bother with +P loads in these small guns?
 
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#22 ·
I carry the best defensive ammo that I can shoot well. Only hits count.

If the SHTF, I'd rather make a .32 ACP hit in the ocular cavity over a near miss with a nuclear-powered 10mm.

I'm not a fan of tiny handguns. I don't have the time to practice enough to shoot them well. I've tried and now I carry one only as a NY reload.

Granted, Cooper's first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun, but in all the after action reports I've read, I've yet to come across one of the debriefs where the surviving good guy said that he wished he'd had a smaller gun. YMMV.
 
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#24 ·
I don't think it is the pressure so much as
it is the FPS, some loads shoot to the +P
FPS and don't have as much pressure.

The power of the load batters the gun
but does not blow it up, the little guns
can take the pressure, not the recoil.

That is my experience.

The RSA could have been bad from
the factory too.

Ruger has the best CS in the business,
better than Glock.

I like my LC9S, it goes well with my other
40+ Rugers.
 
#25 ·
I think that when it gets to the micro 9mm pistols like the LC9S standard pressure ammo is the better choice.

The most important thing aside from having a gun to protect yourself in the first place is having a totally reliable gun/ammo combination and if the manual says "occasional" firing of +P is okay I would stay completely away from that ammunition.

In a sub-compact or compact size 9mm pistol I prefer a 124-grain +P round as long as I know the pistol is built to shoot it all day long.
 
#27 ·
Folks who are all about having the most power and velocity to reach the FBI minimum penetration are not understanding the physics. Higher velocity often creates faster expansion and LESS penetration.
 
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#29 ·
Yea been handloading for crap I can't tell ya how long I do understand the physics of momentum and expansion. What a +P out of a 2 1/2 inch barrel is to bring the velocity closer to a 4 or 5 in barrel velocity shooting standard ammo. Which is around 1099 to 1150 fps.
 
#30 · (Edited)
No, your thinking is all wrong here. What BB and UW are doing is making 10mm ammo to proper 10mm specifications.
Based on my experience the 10mm loads from BB and UW are the hottest 10mm ammo that has ever been available. UW matches or slightly exceeds the power that Norma was just claiming. It was pretty common in the 80s for ammo makers to use numbers from a pressure test barrel instead of real guns which results in inflated numbers. The only chronograph results I could find for Norma are at http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/norma-factory-ammunition/ . This was after they had reduced their loadings but they were still claiming much higher velocity than this.

I bought a Springfield Omega (A long slide 1911 style gun with a Stahl lockup) shortly after 10mm came out. Like many 10mm handguns of the day it was not really strong enough and after it broke a couple of times I traded it for a S&W 610 also in 10mm about 25 years ago. I have shot a lot of different types of ammo through the 610 including some of the original Norma ammo I had laying around from when it was the only type available in the 80s and some hot handloads. The only problem I ever had was with some DoubleTap ammo where the cases were so sticky I nearly needed to tap them out with a rod. And DT is usually weaker than UW or BB. My friends G29 had no trouble with them though. If you load the 10mm up to the original pressure specs you get around 600 ft-lbs of energy out of a real gun, not the 700-800 UW delivers. Their stuff is really 10mm +P.

When gun is designed to handle a cartridge of a particular power level reliability is going to suffer when fed ammo outside the design specification. Glocks usually still work but not always and other guns may start jamming or breaking sooner. And there is just no need to push the limits when you have the option of buying a more powerful cartridge. Ruger may not make a LC40 but Kahr makes a PM40. If the 147 grain UW +P+ 9mm at 1175 fps is good wouldn't their 155 grain XTP 40 at 1300 fps be even better? If 10mm is not enough there is 460 Rowland. After looking for more powerful 10mm loads for my S&W 610 my final choice was to buy a S&W 69 in 44 magnum.

If you feel the need to use ammo that pushes the envelope you bought the wrong gun.
 
#31 ·
Based on my experience the 10mm loads from BB and UW are the hottest 10mm ammo that has ever been available. UW matches or slightly exceeds the power that Norma was just claiming. It was pretty common in the 80s for ammo makers to use numbers from a pressure test barrel instead of real guns which results in inflated numbers. The only chronograph results I could find for Norma are at http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/norma-factory-ammunition/ . This was after they had reduced their loadings but they were still claiming much higher velocity than this.

I bought a Springfield Omega (A long slide 1911 style gun with a Stahl lockup) shortly after 10mm came out. Like many 10mm handguns of the day it was not really strong enough and after it broke a couple of times I traded it for a S&W 610 also in 10mm about 25 years ago. I have shot a lot of different types of ammo through the 610 including some of the original Norma ammo I had laying around from when it was the only type available in the 80s and some hot handloads. The only problem I ever had was with some DoubleTap ammo where the cases were so sticky I nearly needed to tap them out with a rod. And DT is usually weaker than UW or BB. My friends G29 had no trouble with them though. If you load the 10mm up to the original pressure specs you get around 600 ft-lbs of energy out of a real gun, not the 700-800 UW delivers. Their stuff is really 10mm +P.

When gun is designed to handle a cartridge of a particular power level reliability is going to suffer when fed ammo outside the design specification. Glocks usually still work but not always and other guns may start jamming or breaking sooner. And there is just no need to push the limits when you have the option of buying a more powerful cartridge. Ruger may not make a LC40 but Kahr makes a PM40. If the 147 grain UW +P+ 9mm at 1175 fps is good wouldn't their 155 grain XTP 40 at 1300 fps be even better? If 10mm is not enough there is 460 Rowland. After looking for more powerful 10mm loads for my S&W 610 my final choice was to buy a S&W 69 in 44 magnum.

If you feel the need to use ammo that pushes the envelope you bought the wrong gun.
My question to you is what is the point of 10mm ammo that performs like .40 S&W?
 
#34 ·
Pistols are not unlike car engines. Or engines in general. An automatic pistol is, in essence, a small engine that uses the power of the cartridge to run the mechanism. The power output is used in a different way, i.e., metal projectiles to strike objects at distance, but the concept of the use of chemical based energy source to run the mechanism is the same.
Here is where the problem can arise; we all know that putting extreme stress on a internal combustion reciprocating piston engine(Over RPM limits, Extreme power modifications, beyond specification fuels, etc) can "kill" it in short order. It will work for a time before it gives up the "Ghost", as it were.
Pistols are of the same genre in so much as they are basic engines. Work it really hard, and put beyond specification "fuel" in it, and it will in short order, break or quit. Running any object beyond it's design limits can, and will cause problems with that object over time.
+P+ rounds are beyond design specifications of most, if not all pistols in existence. Will it work? Sure, for a time it will. But again, push the pistol to operate beyond it's design limits, and given time, the pistol will fail, somehow.
+P a little less so, and regular pressure rounds, the pistol should last to the manufacturers stated wear limits.
Now, since were are also considering the power benefits of high pressure ammunition for their striking ability, that is a debate all unto itself.
I do use +P ammunition in a 5 shot .38, but for carry purposes only. Shot a few to make sure the revolver can handle it, and to understand the "feel" on recoil. Other than that, I personally don't really use +P ammo in my pistols. Both 9mm and .40 S&W are already high pressure rounds in the own right.
As always, YMMV. Stay safe. Ofc.JL
 
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#38 ·
Not to hijack the thread, but any thoughts on +P or +P+ in my Smith & Wesson 469???
 
#45 ·
OOOPPPPPSSSS not so. The following link is to S&W Shield owners manual concerning the ammunition to be used in their Shield.
http://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/sit...als/M&P_Shield_All_09-30-16_441310000_web.pdf

These paragraphs point out the occasion use of +P will only accelerate wear while both Ruger and S&W manuals contain the statement of not using +P+ at all. As many know, the +P+ ammo pressures have not been defined and each manufacturer loads to their own horizon.

But back to the original thread topic. My purpose of the post was to share my experience with +P ammo in a Ruger LC9s Pro and in my universe of experience with that particular pistol, which is one, it didn't work out too good. Ruger confirmed that it did not work out too good when they replace a broken RSA.

The point of the post was also to state my opinion on how great Glock pistols are in comparison to some of the other smaller 9mm as far as durability and strength while acknowledging their larger weight and size in the G26, G27, G19 etc......models. Also to say that I would not shoot +P ammo in that LC9s Pro again but would not hesitate to shoot it through all of my Glock pistols and to indicate my return to the G27 as a EDC stuffed with +P ammo..
 
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