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Buckshot vs Birdshot

16K views 62 replies 45 participants last post by  Firecop203 
#1 ·
I may be wrong in the fact that once someone recommends birdshot for home defense I can no longer take them seriously?
Ive heard or seen experts suggest this load. Not the majority but some do. I find this laughable. Yes I understand birdshot CAN be effective
at times. But OO buck has proven it is effective, and at in home distance devastating.
 
#32 ·
I will never use anything smaller than #4 buck for a defensive load. The only time you would be able to count on birdshot being an effective anti personnel load would be if you can guarantee contact shots only.

I once had to put down a small animal that weighed about 10 pounds, the shotgun I grabbed was loaded with #6 birdshot. The shot was only a few feet from the muzzle and did not put the animal down. I spent the next 15 minutes trying to catch it to finish the job. It is not humane or wise to use birdshot on things it wasn't meant for.
 
#33 ·
My first Patrol supervisor required us to have one #8 bird shot to be the last thing put in the tube. His reason was that the bird shot would take the back window out of the vehicle while doing minimal harm to the occupants giving us a clear view into the interior. I'm not going to say whether I agreed or disagreed only that I did as instructed.

On the one occasion I had to use it as soon as the glass stopped flying three handguns came out of the car followed by the hands of all the occupants.
 
#36 ·
For total area damaged 24 pellets of #4 do 1.086 square inch of damage; 9 pellets 00 do 0.76 square inch. Which Is why I use a 3 in magnum with 15 pellets of 00. :)
 
#40 ·
There was some Remington HD stuff that came out several years ago that I quite liked. It was a duplex load of #2 and #4 buck.

I can't find it anymore though, so am currently using Federal Tap 00, and Winchester PDX1 slugs. Guns are loaded with Tap, with 2 rounds of PDX in the sidesaddle alongside more Tap.
 
#41 ·
Depending on the season, but in the winter the BG may be wearing heavy clothing. Birdshot not going to penetrate heavy canvas type jackets and pants. May cause soiled pants but not much more.
 
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#42 ·
I have attended a couple of tactical shotgun classes. The instructor was X-special forces. He loves shotguns. His direction was:
Bird shot for birds and small game.
#4 Buck for urban home defense. Great stopping power, less likelihood of over penetration.
OO buck for general defense.
Slugs where maximum penetration is needed. Cautioned against use in urban areas.
 
#43 ·
Dr. Gary Roberts:

DocGKR - "Based on IWBA data, Don Hacklander from San Diego Police Supply and I have been discussing the potential of a properly designed #1 buckshot LE load for many years--with Don's help and the efforts of some folks at ATK, this has now finally been brought to fruition!"

DocGKR - "We shot the new Federal #1 buckshot, 15 pellet, 1100 fps "Flight Control" load (LE132-1B) yesterday out of a generic 18" 870P, including patterning from 5-35 yards, as well as a bare gel shot at 7 yards. In bare gel, all 15 of the 30 caliber plated pellets penetrated in the 14-18 inch range."

Another test shot fired by Dr. Roberts from the same shotgun at a recorded velocity of 1095 fps at 3 meters (9.84 feet) into a gelatin block with a car windshield in front of it resulted in two badly deformed pellets penetrating to 5 inches, three pellets to 8-9 inches, and the remaining 10 pellets making it to 12.5-15 inches.

DocGKR - "This new Federal LE132-1B #1 buckshot load offers IDEAL terminal performance for LE and self-defense use and is the best option for those who need to use shot shells for such purposes."

DocGKR - "This new #1 buckshot load is the KING of self-defense shot loads, so that will be a match made in heaven."










GR
 
#44 ·
There's always birdshot cut-shells. Do it right, and it behaves somewhat like a slug. Not much need for it in the US, but in countries that buckshot or slugs are hard to come by.... I tried it, and they're pretty nasty.
 
#47 ·
Depends on what's behind each wall in your home, office, or RV, and whether you want enough penetration to be lethal not only across one room, but thru windows, doors, or walls and into other rooms and down the hall or next door.

If I want more penetration, I want 7.62x39 instead of 12g.
If I want more range, is it really self-defense?

In my largest room, most birdshot would make a fist-sized hole in either flesh or wallboard.
 
#49 ·
When I owned a 12-gauge shotgun for home defense my first choice of ammo was #1 buckshot followed closely by #4 buckshot. After some research into the question I totally ruled out birdshot for situations when lives are on the line. A home defender must take out the threat immediately if at all possible, especially in today's world.
 
#50 ·
This is such simple thing. The Gold Standard of close quarters combat man stopping rounds is 12 gauge 00 Buckshot. Has been for a LONG LONG time...the reason is simple its brutal, violent and devastating at close range. Nobody with any sense argues with this.

I personally feel the Federal Flite Control technology is counterproductive and negates one of the best aspects of a shotgun for self defense. But I know some of you are convinced that ultra tiny groups of buckshot is a good thing. Maybe if you compete in turkey shoots. But in my experience killing lots of living things with a shotgun a tiny group reduces your hit probability. And by hit probability I'm talking about actually hitting a vital organ--not simply hitting a moving bad guy. Inside a room/home a load of #4 buck will have a significantly larger pattern than a load of flite control buck. As a result I have a far greater probability that one of my pellets will hit a vital organ than your nice tight group. And some of you will cry that I should worry about stray pellets...let me tell you something. Both of our loads are going to completely pass through an average person. So the ultimate concern is not whether you have stray pellets missing your intended target BUT rather whether you have a safe shooting lane in the first place. Because even if you are Jerry Micklick and hit your target perfectly how the hell are you going to account for the pellets that pass through and continue on?
 
#56 ·
At typical home defense ranges regardless of shot size most all patterns will be fist size or less.
The idea a shotgun gives increased hit probability inside ten yards due to shot pattern size is a complete myth.
At home defense ranges the shotgun is essentially a large bore rifle.
Yes I have shot and patterned plenty of shotguns and your own chart pretty much proves what I am
Saying at close range pellet patterns are very tight and a shotgun is only
Going to be effective aimed like a rifle.
There should not be an expectation that a loose pellet from a sloppy pattern still will incapacitate.
10 yards ( probably twice what the average hd range is )shows 19 inches with the most open choke on your chart.
So drop that to 1/2 ( 10 inches) at five yards and yes it is scarcely larger than a fist


My fist is 3.75 wide x 2.75 tall - do you own a ruler? Are you the incredible Hulk?

The 000 buck pattern in my example is about a 4 inch spread depending on what point you pick. I would agree that is "about" fist size.

The 0 buck is about 5 inches - if you have really large hands maybe still fist size.

Jump up to #4 buckshot and you are at about 8 inches - what % of the world you think has an 8" fist?

Now if you use the guy with the largest hands ever according to Guinness world records then I would have to concede to your point -

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/largest-hands-living-person

The largest hands on a living person belong to Sultan Kösen (Turkey, b. 10 December 1982) who had hands measuring 28.5 cm (11.22 in) from the wrist to the tip of the middle finger, when last measured on 8 February 2011.

Sultan also has the widest hand span at 30.48 cm (12 in).

But if you are talking about a normal human hand - then you are just plain wrong.

Assuming you own a HD shotgun - next time you are at the range shoot a 8x11 in target at 7 yards using #8 birdshot - then take a picture of it with your fist covering all the holes in the target. Post that picture and I will admit I am wrong.

Maybe if you use an extra full turkey choke and have a special buffered load with a high tech shot cup you could make it work. :headscratch:

Using a basic HD shotgun with an 18-22 inch barrel - cylinder bore or improved cylinder choke - using typical off the shelf #7 or 8 birdshot shells - NFW.
 
#52 · (Edited)
OTE="MajorD, post: 23617859, member: 151556"]At typical home defense ranges regardless of shot size most all patterns will be fist size or less.
The idea a shotgun gives increased hit probability inside ten yards due to shot pattern size is a complete myth.
At home defense ranges the shotgun is essentially a large bore rifle.[/QUOTE]

Have you ever patterned (or even fired) a shotgun?




A while back I shot a bunch of 8x11 inch cardboard targets to compare the pattern of various buckshot loads out of my 870 & Versa-Max. Distance was 10 of my steps - which is about 7 yards.

Even at that short range - some loads didn't have all the pellets hit the paper.

The one thing that is obvious - the smaller size #4 buckshot had a bigger spread than 000 buck. Smaller the shot size - bigger the spread - at least out of my HD shotguns.

Here is one example -

All fired out of a Versa-Max tactical with a 22" barrel improved cylinder choke -

The left picture is Remington 000 buckshot - the right picture is Remington #4 buckshot - bottom picture is Remington 0 buckshot.




With this much spread using #4 buckshot - just imagine what #8 birdshot would look like.
 
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#53 ·
Yes I have shot and patterned plenty of shotguns and your own chart pretty much proves what I am
Saying at close range pellet patterns are very tight and a shotgun is only
Going to be effective aimed like a rifle.
There should not be an expectation that a loose pellet from a sloppy pattern still will incapacitate.
 
#55 ·
I have not shot anyone with a 12 gauge shotgun using either birdshot or buckshot. I have seen some shotgun wound up close and personal. The buckshot wounds were very impressive. The birdshot wounds not so much.

I load my home 12 gauge pump with either 00 buckshot or #1 buckshot.
 
#58 ·
Very tight indeed. I use Federal #1 Buck with Flight Control Wad ammo for my HD shotgun. One day my wife was practicing and a fellow walked up and asked what kind of slugs we were shooting?

I have only shot them from cyl choked shotgun. Devastating performance.
 
#59 ·
Very tight indeed. I use Federal #1 Buck with Flight Control Wad ammo for my HD shotgun. One day my wife was practicing and a fellow walked up and asked what kind of slugs we were shooting?

I have only shot them from cyl choked shotgun. Devastating performance.
I could see wanting a super tight pattern if you are shooting deer - more likely needing to shoot 20-30 yards out - not sure why I would want this tight of a pattern for a HD round - which would be inside my home range.

But am open minded - why not just use a slug?
 
#60 ·
BTW -

I have tried Federal Premium Personal Defense shells in a semi auto 20 gauge - they did not cycle reliably.

They are reduced recoil loads - OK for a pump - but not all semi autos will shoot them.

The 12 gauge version also looks like reduced recoil.

EDIT: I see now that they sell both reduced recoil & full power loads -
 
#63 ·
Shotguns at short distances such as inside a house no matter what size shot is used can be devastating. I can also say that the ER Docs are not fond of birdshot. It takes forever to pick all the shot out of someone one piece at a time.
 
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