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LEOs can't shoot.

16K views 356 replies 97 participants last post by  Jake Starr 
#1 ·
I've spent several months researching the results of gun battles. It seems to me that if LEOs had the skills of the average GT member, they would adequately survive with a G26, two ten round magazines but with a G26 BUG.

So, anybody disagree?
 
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#315 ·
More great reporting from your "source:"

"Of the few agencies that actively collect gunfight data, even fewer choose to freely share it. Those that do share their data tend to offer it in a sterilized table format that makes detailed analysis difficult. As this article progresses, you’ll see how the devil has long been hidden in the details of gunfight data."

Good job.
 
#316 ·
Guppy my lad come on up and we will shoot some after 19 months in chu lai. Vietnam and over 40 yrs as a street cop and sgt i have nothing to be ashamed of.now retired I still shoot ,hell in shooting at ft.meade Sunday with some really high speed low drag folks. It will be fungi quill under leosa in November for the second. Time this year.
I have survived and never lost a officer
Come on over we will shoot some
 
#320 ·
Here your source admits to elusive data for low light hit ratios:

"Though serious attempts have been made to pursue hard data pertinent to whether low light hit ratios have improved since the widespread adoption of “night sights,” such data specificity has been elusive."
 
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#323 ·
Here it admits to very little data comparing range scores to gun fight efficacy:

"There has long been a degree of controversy regarding whether prowess on the firing range would translate into higher hit ratios in actual gunfights. Very little data is available to elucidate this issue beyond what will be attempted here."
 
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#332 ·
I already did. It's only of value to those who can read, who will read, and most importantly, are able to understand what they read.

Questionable source? Hardly.

The irony of this post is stunning. I have to ask: how is your reading comprehension? 4949shooter beat me to posting quotes from your link and its flawed "research". So this post tells me you either didn't read the link YOU provided or your reading comprehension is lower than your claimed 20% hit ratio by cops.
 
#336 ·
This is from sns3guppy' source material. Note the dates.
Endnotes: i FBI (1992). Killed In The Line Of Duty: A Study of Selected Felonious Killings of Law Enforcement Officers. U.S. Justice Department. Washington, DC.

ii The Oregonian, April 25, 1992, “Shootings: Who, What and How Many”

iii The Washington Post, November 15, 1998, “District Police Lead Nation In Shootings.”

iv Alpert, G., Dunham, R. (1995). “Police Use of Deadly Force: A Statistical Analysis of the Metro-Dade Police Department.” Police Executive Research Forum, Washington, DC.

v Data published from Metro-Dade Internal Affairs and Firearms Discharge Reports, 1990-2001.

vi The Oregonian, April 25, 1992, “Shootings: Who, What and How Many”

vii The number of long gun rounds fired is about 14% of the total number of rounds examined during this period. To what extent this skews hit probability is hard to determine, as suspect hits were not delineated by the caliber of projectiles causing wounds. Another confounding variable might be that for every “hit” with 12-gage buckshot, there might be as many as 8 other pellets missing their intended target.

viii Geller, W. & Scott, M. (1992). Deadly Force: What We Know. Police Executive Research Forum. Washington, DC.

ix Data published from Metro-Dade Internal Affairs and Firearms Discharge Reports, 1990-2001.

x The LAC data suggests that furtive movement on the part of suspect commonly preceded a mistake-of-fact shooting.

xi (1996-2001) Unpublished, scripted Simunition®-based role-playing scenarios conducted by the author.
sns3guppy, your source document was last published in 2003. Have you researched more recent studies, say within the last two years that support the/your 80% miss rate?
 
#337 ·
When Googling "police tend to miss 80% of the time", here are the first three returns:
Police Marksmanship Under Fire - The Police Policy Studies Council
www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
by TJ Aveni - ‎Cited by 6 - ‎Related articles
Those that do share their data tend to offer it in a sterilized table format that ..... During the same time frame we have published data (“Statistical Abstract of Shooting .... omits ALL police shootings in which officers fired at suspects, but missed ...

Leave Guns To The Police: They're Professionals! - The Truth About ...
www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/03/.../leave-police-theyre-professiona...
Mar 9, 2015 - Some agencies require at least an 80% score, but all allow reshooting ... During that period, using revolvers, they missed 65% of the time, but 75% of ..... But a lot of the young people who want to be cops tend to have a sense ...

LEOs can't shoot. | Page 9 | Glock Forum at GlockTalk.com
www.glocktalk.com › Forums › Serving America › Cop Talk
5 days ago - Broad brush. Some police officers are very good shots. Many are not, and under stress, police tend to miss 80% of the time. Statistics aren't ...
 
#339 ·
SN3guppy ascribes to many fallacies and apparently doesn't give much thought to what he swallows as "fact".

The main fallacy he holds is that range performance is a good indicator of street performance, which is false. Mechanical shooting proficiency does not determine who wins a gunfight. The ability to recognize danger, to react NOW, to hold it together in the intense stress of an actual deadly force encounter and shoot even when impaired by the physiological bodily reactions brought on by by that stress all rank as far more important than being a great marksman on a sunny day on a stress free range, squarely facing stationary targets that aren't shooting at you.

Those that cling to the belief that range marksmanship is of paramount importance do so because range performance is all they have. Facing the uncomfortable truth that their range marksmanship skills don't actually count for much in real world deadly force encounters is simply unthinkable.
 
#341 ·
Hey 4949 how do u folks like the sign 228 s. We have used them down here and love them accurate as sin and reliable my county. Uses they 40 call 229 s and all love them.
Now off duty the sign 290 s and flock 27 26 s dominate cause they are smaller and lighter.
You know how it is to carry for hours and such. I usually carry my 26 or a sw shield.
 
#344 ·
What I see now is that many of the rookies being hired are not gun people and never fired a weapon until,they get on the range at the Academy. They don't practice on their own time. I was in service 20 years before I joined LE and knew how to shoot. That is the difference, I had put many rounds down range before I joined. That is not how it works now. Maybe we should review the stats before we make a determination how they preformed.
 
#347 ·
Is it a near 100% rate of hitting the perpetrator or 100% of each round fired by officers hitting the perpetrator?

The rate comes from reported officer involved shooting investigations and appears to be accurate from what I have seen or heard.
Again what is the reality hit rate per bullet fired by private gun owner shootings. Not even above 5% I would imagine if such stats were established.

The 20 number reffers to per round fired, not 20% per encounter. It has been said that in Vietnam that 100,000 rounds were fired per each enemy solider killed to give an comparison
I'm sure all kinds of examples can be found but I can only go by what I see. Like I said I see the media play up big time when lots of rounds fired with lots of misses. I never see them play up if a officer fires 6 times though and hits the offender 6 times. That just isn't an interesting enough thing for the anti police media and public I'm guessing.
 
#352 ·
I'm surprised. Do your state statutes allow you to shoot out the tires of an unarmed person in a residential area? I know many self-defense laws well. But that would never fly in most situations. Either you are justified to shoot in the defense of yourself or others, but not to try to stop a person escaping that offers you no threat by shooting his vehicle.
 
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