I'd figure I'd post this now while I'm still a newbie, before I forget.
One of the most common debates I see related to reloading is between those who say reloading saves money vs those who say they don't have time to reload. Since this is the reloading forum, obviously the reloaders are correct. But I just want to point out one aspect of "time" that I don't see taken into account much.
It takes a lot of time to learn how to reload. While running the specific actions of feeding a press and pulling a lever might be simple enough to learn, there is a lot that a new reloader needs to know before getting ready to set that up and run it safely.
If reloading is done as a hobby, the time devoted to learning is part of the fun. But if reloading were to be done just to save money, that up front time investment is huge. And maintaining the level of mental focus and responsibility throughout reloading also takes time. The organizing and staying organized takes time, too. The attention to detail takes time. Wonderful as a hobby, but not so great for just wanting to save money.
The more experienced of a reloader you are, probably the farther you are from being able to remember and recognize the initial time investment
M2, I hope you're not planning on moving anytime soon! My stash looked like that, and then I found out the movers wouldn't load the stuff. Made the trip to the new place in the back of U-Haul. No fun loading and unloading all that stuff. Plus powder, bullets, primers, lead and brass. Uggg.
Next move will be after I win the lotto, and someone else can move that stuff!
:agree: Just the concept of NOT being tied to the ammo food chain should be enough to get serious shooters to reload. Yes there is a component food chain too, but reloading offers flexibility that buying ammo does not. If they banned civ buying 9mm & 223 ammo tomorrow, I could shoot still shoot both as much as I want. I can make bullets for both, more than a dozen powder choices for both, I could even scrounge primers & powders for both, God forbid, by breaking down commercial ammo in other caliber to use.
:agree: Just the concept of NOT being tied to the ammo food chain should be enough to get serious shooters to reload. Yes there is a component food chain too, but reloading offers flexibility that buying ammo does not. If they banned civ buying 9mm & 223 ammo tomorrow, I could shoot still shoot both as much as I want. I can make bullets for both, more than a dozen powder choices for both, I could even scrounge primers & powders for both, God forbid, by breaking down commercial ammo in other caliber to use.
This is what pushed me over the edge. I had always known I would reload someday to save money (to shoot more with the same money), but the panic that started in 2012 is what made me decide to do it. I bought a press kit and some components in the middle of the shortage - was hard to find just about every component, but it sure beat standing in line at Walmart or Academy for an hour or two before they brought the ammo out on a Sunday morning.
This leads me to ask: How many people who think reloading is a waste of time will make a trip to the store to buy a box of ammo before a trip to the range? With my turrent press I would easily have that box of ammo ready before you're back from the store, and those guys with the progressives would have that box made before you pull out of the driveway! Ok, an exaggeration, but not much of one.
Great thread, have enjoyed reading about your experience & perspectives. Looking forward to setting up my own little reloading operation as a retirement hobby. Thanks all.
I started with that primitive Lee Loader back in about 1983. I bought one used for about $15.00. I can remember hammering.357 Magnum cartridges out (slowly) in the basement of my apartment while watching the 1984 Winter Olympics.
From there I moved to a Lee single stage (the Challenger, IIRC). Eventually, I bought the Lee Turret Press, then the Progressive 1000 - a complete piece of junk I literally threw into the trash. I use Lee dies and have loaded .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .45 Colt, .223, .30-30, 9mm and .45 ACP, the last two by the tens of thousands. About a year ago, I replaced my old Turret with the newer, beefier Classic Turret and the 4-stage turrets, which allow for a factory taper crimp die.
I now load only 9mm & .45 Auto, having divested myself of a lot of guns over the years. And I love reloading. It's therapeutic to get away from things and work in the garage for awhile!
I don't necessarily disagree w/ what the OP is saying, but I'll reverse the argument... When I was 16, I had to hold a learners permit for 6mo before I could get my drivers license... at which point I got privilege of paying for gas, insurance, car maintenance, etc.. over simply using pedal power on my bike the rest of my life.
Spending a little time to get the nuances of reloading down to save a considerable amount of money over factory ammo.. doesn't seem like a big deal.
Loading ammo is way worth it to me. It's great fun! It allows me to work with my scientific and intellectual sides of my personality and play with some OCD. I can set down with the LNL-AP and crank out all sorts of 9mm, 5.56, 10mm, and a host of other calibers. Good solid range ammo that is IMHO better than retail junk. I can fire up the Classic Turret and be loading up some .357 Sig, 10mm or other ammo on the hotter side of life and it's quality ammo. I need some nukes? Thats where the single stage heap cheap Lee press's begin to play a role. Can get all sorts of OCD. Mostly new brass or same head stamp and weighted brass with weighed bullets, trickled powder charges. The result time and time again is quality ammo that can not be bought any where. Custom tuned to meet the needs of my inner shooting demon. Loading up my own ammo is very satisfying.
As for the cost? Well the tools needed is a expense and can be a hefty one at that. The discussion will rage on forever concerning whats the best. The koolaid war is really stupid. It really should be reference to the Rainbow Warriors. Because it really is gay, in a happy sort of way yeah know... As far as the cost of ammo and a way to make it presentable to people is best illustrated like I did with my wife. I noticed one day she was looking at retail craptastic ammo at a shop we were at. I asked her what she thought about ammo prices. She stated real fast I can see why you load your own. So we did some basic math off a 20 round box of Hornady 9mm 124g XTP's. I tried the cost per rounds but that did not wake her up. But when I told her I could reuse good brass, buy the same bullets and load up a 100 rounds for $7.00 more than that retail box she suggested I get more consumables while we were there. Stock up baby here is another $200 I had stashed in my wallet. Since then she has not made a peep one concerning money or time I spend reloading. And when we are at the range together she goes into full brass hound mode.
She does not shoot a lot. I wish she shot more. She really likes her tuned 60 Pro. And while she will not keep it loaded with .357 mag for HD she likes shooting it for fun. She loves shooting the proper .38 +P ammo for her HD training. And thats what she keeps in her 60 Pro is her husbands ammo. I enjoy it when she is done working and wants to play. When she puts her revolver up and picks up the G20 or 31 she wants nukes and targets out there that show damage and the devilish grin comes fourth.
The only time I buy retail ammo is when I get a new gun. The first 300 to 500 rounds shot are always retail. So that ammo for me is always a parts of the new gun price. Once that ammo is expended or most of it. The weapon then goes on a full diet of my ammo. It shall never suffer the torture of retail ammo again unless I get bored and want to do some testing.
Loading my own has also helped me live by a life rule. STAY OUT OF WAL-MART! If Wal-Mart is the only place I can get something,,, I just flat out don't need it.
:agree: Especially true when talking magnums & the 10mm. There are few medium loads in the magnums & most 10mm is like 40+p. Then cost. Those that poopoo cost just dont shoot much imo. My annuaL ammo count is right about 10k rds, pistol & rifle. Factory would cost me upwards of $2500, my cost well below $1000. Thats a new gun or a nice little vacation.
A few months ago you were saying when buying molds, you recommended a certain type because the bullets it casts are more versatile. I can't remember the type you were talking about, do you remember that conversation on here.
I needed a lift! Nothing makes me smile more than ammo boxes filled to the brim with cartridges!
Regarding production volume......There is only ONE cartridge of interest to me. That's the one I'm currently loading. I load one at a time and make no effort to load high volumes of rounds. Quality wins over quantity any time.
I hear this often. It implies that rounds loaded on progressive equip are less quality than rounds loaded on a ss press. Just not the case, especally with pistol ammo, but even for precision rifle shooting, very high quality ammo comes off progressive equip. No ammo manuf is loading one at a time.
Hey, guys...........WTH! Don't put words in my mouth! You completely misrepresented what I said!
I currently have 2 Dillon RL 550B's with 13 die sets and have had numerous Dillon presses over a span of over 30 years! My statement referred to my mindset of reloading. I don't keep track of how many rounds that I load or how much time I spent doing that. I concentrate on the round that is in the press right now.
I don't go for SPEED in the process or to break any production records. There's only ONE cartridge that's important. It's the one currently cycling in the press.
Hey, guys...........WTH! Don't put words in my mouth! You completely misrepresented what I said!
I currently have 2 Dillon RL 550B's with 13 die sets and have had numerous Dillon presses over a span of over 30 years! My statement referred to my mindset of reloading. I don't keep track of how many rounds that I load or how much time I spent doing that. I concentrate on the round that is in the press right now.
I don't go for SPEED in the process or to break any production records. There's only ONE cartridge that's important. It's the one currently cycling in the press.
Not putting words in your mouth but your implication is just because it is done on a progressive 7-8x faster than a ss press, the process is less scrutinized & that just isn't true. I hear ss press guys loading squibs & double charges all the time.
Generally this mind set is from older guys that think waaay back to early progressives & their issues. Totally diff today. I started on a ss press 40yrs ago. Today, I would not recommend a ss press as a starter for any pistol shooting. One could argue something like the COAX for a guy only loading precision rifle, sure, I still use a ss press to load some precision rifle, but nothing wrong with ammo coming off a progressive.
Quality comes from the gear & the process, not how fast or slow you load. I can run a Dillon 550B as slow as a ss press, not pay attention, crap ammo. Just like a ss press btw. Pretty easy to f-up powder charges in a block of 100 if your technique is flawed. Same for a progressive. If you become a handle puller with any setup, you are doomed to an eventual failure.
It is not. I have no idea how many thousands of "dirty" primer pocket cases I have loaded and fired over the last 30+ years but it's "a lot", hundreds of thousands. Most were fired practicing for or competing at matches.
If your OCD and ask if it can hurt, the answer would also be, no. If you are uniforming primer pockets and deburing flash holes too, they will already be clean at that point.
I have never cleaned a pistol primer pocket. I have cleaned pockets on my precision rifle, just to see if it affects accuracy, it does not. To each his own on that but I don't bother.
I for one think it is a very good idea to spend some money and get good tooling and get everything necessary to produce good ammo right from the start. Beginners should not be improvising on things in which they do not understand. The OP just mentioned case tumblers or cleaning. This rarely comes up when we discuss what the beginner needs to start but it is quite necessary and an inexpensive tumbler costs in many cases more than a Lee single stage press.
My other piece of sage advice to the beginner is start with only 1 caliber at a time. Pick the one you use the most and learn on that. Once you get a stockload of good serviceable ammo for your main caliber, then move on to the next. Spend the money you might spend on 10 different die sets on a really good press, powder measure and scale, a good caliper and a case gage.
Also spend the money on a set of check weights. They keep me honest, the scale I'm using honest and the powder measure honest. I consider my check weights the most important tool on my bench.
"Not putting words in your mouth but your implication is just because it is done on a progressive 7-8x faster than a ss press, the process is less scrutinized & that just isn't true. I hear ss press guys loading squibs & double charges all the time."
There ya go again! You don't speak for me- not now, not ever!. I never said that and I don't believe it. What the heck is wrong with you?
"Not putting words in your mouth but your implication is just because it is done on a progressive 7-8x faster than a ss press, the process is less scrutinized & that just isn't true. I hear ss press guys loading squibs & double charges all the time."
There ya go again! You don't speak for me- not now, not ever!. I never said that and I don't believe it. What the heck is wrong with you?
Just reading what you wrote. There are implications in simple statements. You can clarofy or keep digging. You seem to have problems articulating so yeah, maybe best to put me on your ignore list, buddy, pal, chum.
but is cleaning each primer pocket not necessary? I thought that was a requirement and also, IMO, a good idea. Getting junk out to keep the new primers seating flush sounded like a good idea to me. Am I off-base? Say it ain't so!!! :wow:
I've been loading since 1960. Uncounted hundreds of thousands of rounds. Early on I cleaned maybe ten primer pockets because the "experts" said the primer pockets should be cleaned.
I thought, No, I don't think this is necessary.
I have never had even one problem because of a "dirty" primer pocket.
This is really interesting to me. Just learning and it just seems to make sense you'd want the pocket clear of anything to prevent the new primer from seating properly. Cases (in my case) aren't tumbled but I've cleaned out the empty pocket with a quick twist of a tool. Not a big deal but not doing so would save a few seconds. And that would be OK 'cause I'm doing all this by hand using a Lee Loader to learn. It was mentioned in all the literature I've read about case prep, too.
The whole reason for powder coating is so that you don't have to lube. Lube smokes quite a bit when fired, powder coat not so much. I consider this a pretty big reason to powder coat for anyone who will be shooting indoors. Plus, in general, lube can make bullets messy. In contrast, once the powder coat is baked on, it's smooth and clean, quite slippery in fact. There would be no reason to lube a powder-coated bullet, as they should slide right through a sizer with ease. That has been my experience, anyway.
Imo, once you are up over 1500fps, &/or higher pressure, you'll get better accuracy with a gc. I am playing with some plain base 130gr 6.8/pc in my ar platform. First test at 2000fps show no leading but accuracy is just ok, 3" for 5rds at 100. I want to try some harder alloy, see if accuracy tightens up. If i can get 2" groups, ild be thrilled.
Imo, once you are up over 1500fps, &/or higher pressure, you'll get better accuracy with a gc. I am playing with some plain base 130gr 6.8/pc in my ar platform. First test at 2000fps show no leading but accuracy is just ok, 3" for 5rds at 100. I want to try some harder alloy, see if accuracy tightens up. If i can get 2" groups, ild be thrilled.
That's interesting and a very unique design! Leave it to Richard Lee to come up with a simplified plan. Thanks for mentioning the Lee unit. When the bullet is sized upside down, most of the bullet bases are flat, which negates the need for a custom top punch.
Good deal! I learned something new, today!
The only Lubrisizers I was exposed to, were the RCBS, Lyman and Saeco brands. Unfortunately, once you selected a brand, you had to stick with their accessories because they weren't interchangeable between RCBS/Lyman and Saeco. Lyman and RCBS interchanged.
I always used the standard lube filled groove method and not the powder coat. My guess would be that it would be unwise to send a slug down the barrel without some form of lube on it. Perhaps some of the members can clarify that.
In the Lubrisizer, there is a cavity filled with lube. There is a handle that tightens a piston which puts pressure on the lube. As the slug passes through the die, lube is forced into the bullet grooves.
If the lube isn't flowing well (like in the winter) , there is a heater that can be installed below the lube cavity or you can warm it up with a hair dryer. I used a dimmer switch to dial back on the right amount of heat when using the heater.
Lube comes in a stick with a hole through the center. The custom bullet maker I worked for in Tulsa (the late Jim Yeates) had his own beeswax lube that we heated up and poured directly into the lubrisizer.
RIP Jim Yeates..........he was a genuine great guy!
Here's a PDF of the Lyman 450/4500 operation. The Lyman and RCBS units are virtually the same. Saeco is different enough to make the parts noninterchangeable.
The bullet is placed above the sizing die, the top punch pushes the slug through the die, where it is sized and lubed up.When the handle is raised, up comes the sized and lubricated bullet.
I have never cleaned a pistol primer pocket. I have cleaned pockets on my precision rifle, just to see if it affects accuracy, it does not. To each his own on that but I don't bother.
And, interestingly, I see others that don't clean 'em, either. Now, is that because you've run the cases through a tumbler (or whatever) to clean them and that did it, or is a clean primer pocket really not that big of a deal? It just made sense to get dirt/carbon out so the new primer would seat flush without problem. Not cleaning them wouldn't make me sad and would save a few seconds but I wanna do it right and not develop bad habits during this time.
It's a good habit. Mine get cleaned because I deprime before I pin wash. I deprime on a cheap Lee C press set up with a universal deprimers. I deprime early so I don't get all the primer smutz on my good presses (the little Lee has to have the gunk cleaned off regularly).
IIRC. there was a recent article in Handloader magazine where the author tested clean/dirty primer pockets. Not much difference in pistol rounds; enough difference in rifle rounds that he cleans primer pockets.
Again, if you do it during case cleaning, it's no effort at all.
Looking carefully at the primer pocket, you'll find that the bottom of the pocket isn't flat. The ridge at the OD of the pocket is raised and that's where the anvil of the primer rests. The rest of the pocket is deeper. Carbon remaining there does no harm. It touches nothing.
In fact, the RCBS case prep units have tooling for cleaning primer pockets. After the brushes are used for a while, they develop a cone shape from uneven pocket bottom. The sides are worn from the anvil area and the center is not.
Those who advocate cleaning the primer pockets, suggest that any carbon remaining on the area that the primer anvil rests may soften the blow of the firing pin or create an ignition delay as that carbon is crunched.
My take on it? I'll clean the primer pockets of rifle ammo that I use in competition. The operative term here is: "Leave no stone unturned." It's not necessary for pistol rounds or for general rifle ammunition........ unless you just want to do it. Heck, it's your ammo, do as you please.
OH...If you don't clean the primer pockets, a high primer could result. It's easy to spot that. I keep a piece of glass in my reloading gear. I stack the rounds primer down on the glass. Bump the glass. A high primer will "dance". You can check a lot of rounds in a very short time.
It takes a lot of time to learn how to reload. While running the specific actions of feeding a press and pulling a lever might be simple enough to learn, there is a lot that a new reloader needs to know before getting ready to set that up and run it safely. ......
The more experienced of a reloader you are, probably the farther you are from being able to remember and recognize the initial time investment
When I initially started reloading, I had lots of spare time and very little money. If I wanted to shoot, buying a $90 Rockchucker Jr was the only way to go.
But, I do remember my early attempts, where I had cartridges belled so wide that they looked like a dog wearing the cone of shame. Fortunately, one of my friends came over and spent an evening showing me how to do a proper setup. That saved me years of pain.
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