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LEO classification expectation?

4K views 63 replies 18 participants last post by  jbglock 
#1 ·
In various threads LEO’s shooting abilities or training often comes up. The general theme in the comments is some version of “LEO’s don’t train enough” or “not good shots.” Inevitable comparisons emerge with shooters who compete. To that end,what is your expectation as to where on a competitive classification scale a LEO should land? Feel free to use your favorite competition (GSSF, USPSA, IDPA,…) as the scale. If you are using something like GSSF, PPC or NRA Action; you could provide a “score” expectation.

To set the stage, I pulled some classification scores from the USPSA website. I excluded unclassified shooters. There were about 35,000 classified shooters (yes, some shooters hold cards in multiple divisions). So this population out of the millions of gun owners, represent a somewhat committed shooting population with at least 6 matches under their belt. Summing the classifications (GM, M, A, etc.) across the 5 divisions (Open, Limited, Production, etc.); you find the following distribution of competitors:

GM 1.5%
M 5.5%
A 10.5%
B 25%
C 40%
D 16.5%
 
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#2 ·
I would like police officers and military members to be at least USPSA B or IDPA Sharpshooter. To get to those levels you need to be competent with your gun. I've been called a cop hater on here before for saying that cops generally can't shoot, but it's a fact. Most of them would struggle to even get classified in a shooting discipline. The few local cops who shoot regularly in competition admit that they are the exception and wish their coworkers would put some effort in.
 
#3 ·
The few local cops who shoot regularly in competition admit that they are the exception and wish their coworkers would put some effort in.
This...I know of a few besides myself but not many.
 
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#4 · (Edited)
Since I have shot LE quals, I agree with ronin, IDPA SS would be my min for carrying a gun as part of one's profession. I feel this is a good balance of skills that allow you to deploy your pistol & NOT have to think about the mechanics of shooting or how to clear a malfunction or even how to reload under stress. The bottom of the IDPA/SS ladder is pretty achievable with monthly quality practice.
There is a reason that major IDPA matches do not as a rule allow novice shooters & the marksmen level guys stuggle to keep up with many of the shooting scenarios. The avg LEO is barely in the IDPA MM category, the avg ccw is at the upper end of novice, based on what I see every weekend.
For those not in competition, the IDPA classier is a 90rd, 3 stage event. Everything you can do in a match or a fight, but for prone shooting, is done in the classifier; shooting while moving, strong hand & weak hand only, 5yds to 20yds, barricade & low cover shooting, emergency & tactical reloads. Pretty much what you want to master if carrying a gun on the streets. All done on a time vs hits ratio. Accurate shooting is good, fast accurate shooting is better.
 
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#6 · (Edited)
Agreed Fred, I don't expect them to be master shooters, just competent.

People denigrate IDPA, but the classifier is a good indicator of general skill.
Ha! The level of trigger time reqd to get to master status is daunting to gun guys, much less a busy leo. There are a few, but master class shooters are mostly civ that shoot a lot. Most of the leo that i get at our range are high level MM or low level SS. These are the guys that make it out monthly. Imagine the ones that dont??? Most leo would barely make MM, competent at best.
I shoot every weekend, but at 60, expert is about all the time i can put in. Of course i can take a stage or two from a lot of masters, but never a match. Maybe when i retire? Of course my eyes & hands arent getting any younger?:fred:
 
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#7 · (Edited)
I shoot with lots of cops. Like everyone else, most of them suck, and some of them are really good. My basis for practical shooting is USPSA. I think it would be good if all cops could make B-Class. That was my initial classification after 1 year of shooting experience, and it took me 2.5 more years to make Master.

Obviously there's a lot more to police work than shooting pistols. Most of what cops do has nothing to do with shooting pistols. Most of what makes a person a good cop has nothing to do with shooting pistols. I can shoot 100% classifiers, and I would absolutely never be able to make it as a beat cop.

There are lots of misconceptions about practical shooting. It takes careful study to learn how to shoot a pistol well. I think it's definitely a desirable skill for LEO's, but it's a peripheral.

ETA: I came to shooting late in life after lots of other sports experience. I grew up with the attitude that LE was something to be avoided. Practical shooting has given me the opportunity to have some great personal relationships with cops, and I appreciate that very much. Shooting has really changed my perspective with respect to LE.
 
#8 ·
I really wish we were able to train officers more. They took away almost our entire training ammunition budget to pay for Narcan this year because of how much we are using it. We will probably have qualifications and nothing else. Those of us who do train do it on our own time and with our own money. I knoe everytime i hit the range it is a big fight with the wife because it's time away from family and money that could go to something more important (her words).
 
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#31 ·
Speak to your accountant about the possibility of deducting your ammo/training expenses.

I agree with other. While you can find exceptions most officers do not go to the range more than the one time a year they qualify. Keep in mind that failure to qualify in NC means you are no longer allowed to access that weapon while on duty until it is qualified and if you fail again it can mean loss of your certification to be an leo. In my own department I often offer to shoot with and help some of our own problem shooters. Range time? Free. Targets? Free. Ammo? If I know ahead of time free. Only a few take me up on it and they go from problem shooters to top shooters at yearly qualifications.

How many here would go to a range where even the ammo is free if given the chance?
 
#9 ·
Wish I had more range time and ammo to train with. I'd love to get into this type of competition and training. Something to consider, is marksmanship is only part of the equation. Tactics and positioning are at least as important.
 
#11 · (Edited)
This is the point though. It is your profession, if your dept wont support you, few do, then its up to you to train up. Yes, shooting is but one part of the job, but probably the most crucial skill set to have. When you get into a shooting situation, your ability will have a huge part in how that shooting starts & ends. Many of the bad shootings today are, imo, a lot to do with the leo lack of skill. This forces them to the gun too soon, reducing the options they have (tulsa). Greater skill translates into more time, if only a few seconds.
This is why many of the local leo shoot with us, on their own time & dime. Even one idpa match a month will improve your gun handling & confidence in your ability to deploy your weapon. Well worth an afternoon & a few $$ imo. Btw, as a leo, you can deduct all your cost for shooting competition, I can not. So $$ is really no excuse.
 
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#14 ·
...To that end,what is your expectation as to where on a competitive classification scale a LEO should land?...
In my state, all certified LEO's are required to qualify once each calendar year to maintain certification. With that said, most, if not all departments, officially record only the minimum score (passing) for each officer.

For example, I just re-qualified with a 98 out of 100 pistol and 72 out of 72 AR rifle but my official record reflects 80 out of 100 pistol and 64 out of 72 AR...both scores are the minimum for passing.

Why is the minimum passing score the officially recorded score you ask? We've had a couple defense attorneys question the skills of those officers that don't produce a perfect or near-perfect score suggesting maybe they should not be authorized to carry a firearm.

So now most officers in my state "officially" meet minimum standards with respect to the firearm platform under which the are qualified. While it's an accurate number, if does artificially lower the presumed level of competency for many officers.

IMHO, those competitive classification scales may not be as telling as one would expect...
 
#16 ·
In my state, all certified LEO's are required to qualify once each calendar year to maintain certification. With that said, most, if not all departments, officially record only the minimum score (passing) for each officer.

For example, I just re-qualified with a 98 out of 100 pistol and 72 out of 72 AR rifle but my official record reflects 80 out of 100 pistol and 64 out of 72 AR...both scores are the minimum for passing.

Why is the minimum passing score the officially recorded score you ask? We've had a couple defense attorneys question the skills of those officers that don't produce a perfect or near-perfect score suggesting maybe they should not be authorized to carry a firearm.

So now most officers in my state "officially" meet minimum standards with respect to the firearm platform under which the are qualified. While it's an accurate number, if does artificially lower the presumed level of competency for many officers.

IMHO, those competitive classification scales may not be as telling as one would expect...
The once a year qualification is standard around here too. That's what we are getting at. Once a year is not even close to enough to maintain proficiency. In addition, the qualifiers are not very challenging(at least the ones I've been part of for NE Ohio). We all realize that budgets are tight and that most cops never use their gun, but a monthly trip to the range is pretty cheap just in case they ever have to.
 
#19 ·
sad, narcan= less training...I feel for ya. Make it to MN in the summer, I will house ya and feed ya and you can spend your vacation at my range..shoot till your head hurts!
That would be a fun time. I remember when I started this career I was shooting 1-2k rounds a month minimum on my own. Of course I was single then and ammo was much much cheaper. When it started going up in price i bought conversion kits and used .22. I could shoot 1k rounds using all my same equipment for under $10. I haven't seen .22 in years locally here.

I miss shooting those days. I used to try and do local matches whenever i could as well
 
#21 · (Edited)
In my state, all certified LEO's are required to qualify once each calendar year to maintain certification. With that said, most, if not all departments, officially record only the minimum score (passing) for each officer.

For example, I just re-qualified with a 98 out of 100 pistol and 72 out of 72 AR rifle but my official record reflects 80 out of 100 pistol and 64 out of 72 AR...both scores are the minimum for passing.

Why is the minimum passing score the officially recorded score you ask? We've had a couple defense attorneys question the skills of those officers that don't produce a perfect or near-perfect score suggesting maybe they should not be authorized to carry a firearm.

So now most officers in my state "officially" meet minimum standards with respect to the firearm platform under which the are qualified. While it's an accurate number, if does artificially lower the presumed level of competency for many officers.

IMHO, those competitive classification scales may not be as telling as one would expect...
Most lea quals are pretty simple to allow that min score. Lots of money tied up in leo sitting a desk if they don't qual. Don't poopoo competiton based scores if you've never been there. Imo, based on having shot quals & shooting competition, the avg leo shoots idpa mm at best. Most leo quals don't have you shoot strong hand/weak hand or while moving or from odd positions of cover.
So competition classifier is pretty telling about ones gun skill? Not saying a masterb competition shooter can be a cop, but his shooting skill will be superior to a leo that only shoots his/her qual. You don't get better unless you shoot, that is just fact. Regardless of your training, w/o repetition, you are never going to advance your skill. Many leo will shoot more in their academy than in their entire 20yr career. No way you get even competent shooting 60-70rds a year.
 
#36 ·
...Don't poopoo competiton based scores if you've never been there...
Been there...earned my master's rating.

...Most leo quals don't have you shoot strong hand/weak hand or while moving or from odd positions of cover...
I suppose that may true...but then I haven't qualified with very many other departments. FWIW, we shoot strong/weak hand, from cover, behind barricades, over/under/through vehicles (including inside and out through glass, and night to mention a few.

...Not saying a masterb competition shooter can be a cop, but his shooting skill will be superior to a leo that only shoots his/her qual...
I will submit that our definition of shooting skills may differ. When I shot competitively, I enjoyed the relative calm of that environment. Generally speaking, I knew what to expect and could concentrate. If I dropped an "X", I simply went home and prepared for the next match.

Street environment scenarios filled with distractions, smoke, screaming instructors, and uncomfortable ground cover that many LEO's practice look nothing like the structured firing line of civilian competition.
 
#22 ·
In my laymans opinion, gun games are not combat training and although they do foster some gun handling skills and basic marksmanship, I would consider it muddying the waters for a LEO who needs combat training. Could many LEO's be better?... sure. I don't think IDPA is the answer.
 
#23 ·
There's no such thing as "Combat training", the deadly threat can't be faked. You either shoot competitions or you go to training classes. The difference is that competition makes you better. We have plenty of guys around here that think taking monthly classes with big name tactical trainers is "real" training. They don't seem to get better, but they look good in their body armor and helmets. Even when they run through a shoothouse they do so at a snails pace that would get you killed in real life. I've said for years that the only tactics in most gunfights are getting the gun out and putting hits on target. Real tactics come into play more when a group is involved.

The sad part is that LEOs don't compete or attend classes. That is the point of this thread.
 
#26 ·
The sad part is that LEOs don't compete or attend classes. That is the point of this thread
Most LE agencies mandate continued training each year in all sorts of topics ( including firearms). Many agencies send their officers all over the US to attend training sponsored by other LE agencies or Federal entities.

I think more training is a good thing as long as it simulates certain conditions(context) where the trainee responds with proper tactics and strategics.
 
#27 ·
OP here...Thanks to those who are putting out expected performance.
Please don't get confused, my intention is not to suggest 'competition for training' or to hash out budget or training issues. The point is that many on the boards suggest LEO's firearms proficiency is not up to their expectations. Often these same people cite some competition based performance or observations. There are also comments that current police qualifications standards are too low/easy.

My question is 'what is the expectation' of LEO shooting performance based on some competitive standard? That can be USPSA or IDPA classifiers; GSSF, NRA Action or PPC scores; etc. So if a generic LEO walks on your range and is given a chance to familiarize themselves with whatever rule set the standards are shot under, what would you realistically want/expect the the LEO to shoot. USPSA C or B on any of the standards? Keep in mind the LEOs aren't allowed to practice the stage for dozens of runs.
 
#32 ·
Range training is not what tops the scales good FOF training is what makes the difference.

Range training is a piece of the puzzle , competition may be of a small help if done correctly and very few seem to grasp what skills need to be built.
 
#37 ·
I hear this often from leo. Fact, you have know idea how you will function under the stress of a gunfight until you are in it. The idea that you will step up & perform better than you can on a range or low stress enviro of competition is unlikely. Every trainer worth his salt will tell you your training, which includes valid practice, will carry you thru the event as your skill level is reduced. So if you suck on the range you are really sucking in a fight. Never had a teainer tell me i would get better when the bullets ate flying.
Again, training w/o practice or vise versa, about the same result. Why all swat team guys shoot more than their brother patrolman. Why all spec op soldiers shoot more than the common grunts. Good dynamic practice is valid to & supports your training. I agree 100%, an idpa gm w/o training is not likely to know how to use the skill he has. Same goes for training. If you never develope your shooting skills, How can you take full advantage of your training? You'll know what to do, but no ability to deliver. Being shown what to do & actually being able to do it, completely unrelated.
As stated earlier, training is 50%, practicing so your gun skills can run on auto pilot is 50%. The less i have to think about running my gun, the more my brain can focus on the tactics & situation i am in. If i have to think about my shooting, i will be missing something i need to see.
Competition rarely equates to street skills However valid FOF training does .
I'm all for relevant training sadly most competition is not and builds bad habits.
Been a trainer for over 30 years. I have 6 students that prevailed in gunfights and met with me afterwards to comment on how the gun just appeared and that the training kicked in ,forgive me if I find fault in some arbitrary rules that are not rules but actually feelings .

Also your strong hand weak hand info is total BS we have had to use both since the 80s don't know where you get your info but it needs an update
 
#38 ·
Every state has diff stds, many dept within states have diff Stds. I can't change your mind, if you want to think one fof training class & one qual a year is enough, that is on you & yours. I don't believe it is & the large number of leo shootings where it all goes wrong sort of supports that.
This is a stigma among the leo community. Why i have helped put on idpa style matches just for leo, so they can feel comfy shooting among peers & not civilians. They are generally well received as good practice. How would that be any diff than an annual qual, but for possibly being a bit more diff? I think none, having shot many diff quals.
Again, i can't change your mind, but one of the local fbi instructors here is happy to shoot with us. In his own worss, "if i brought my students in here foe a mtach, most would meltdown at the buzzer". Not my words, his. So yeah, your 30yrs instructing is valid, but i am never too old to learn something new & probably better.
 
#39 ·
will
Street environment scenarios filled with distractions, smoke, screaming instructors, and uncomfortable ground cover that many LEO's practice look nothing like the structured firing line of civilian competition.
Very true, which amazes me that any leo can thinks he'll be better than his range shooting when the poop hits. You know, you will be worse, your skills will be cut probably in half. So again, if you suck at the range, you are likely to suck worse in a fight. Many leo do NOT practice in the enviro ypu tout. Fact, many LEO do not practice at all, just their quals, if lucky 4x a year but many just annually. You know that, so dont get offended when people point it out. Shooting is a martial art, it needs to be practiced to maintane a high skill level. Again, you & other instructors know that, why you are instructors.
 
#42 ·
Oh and more than likely the first time some IDPA warrior goes into a domestic and gets jumped he will vapor lock and pee his pants because no one at his local match ever popped him in the head and tried to take his gun .
 
#50 · (Edited)
And yet, excepting ambush, cops win. Overwhelmingly.

So if real-world results are such, are people ready to reassess their opinions? Or will we see rationalizations so that we can clutch conceptions harder?

I'm all for relevant, realistic and recent training, don't get me wrong. But frankly, a lot of this sounds like "tear them down, so we can build us up".

Washington Post reports that in 2015 police killed 782 people who were armed with a deadly weapon. ODMP reports that in 2015, 36 Officers lost their lives to non-accidental gunfire. I'm not going to sweep out the ambushes where they had no chance from that; someone else is welcome to. But, we have a back of the envelope floor that'll be tweeked a bit by multiple offenders in a fight, or multiple cops where one of the partners is killed while the other smokes the bad guy. 782:36. Police are winning over 95.6% of their gunfights. BUT IT HAS TO BE HIGHER, because I've only counted bodies. Consider also all the wounded and surrendering perps that only drive the ratio higher. (People who wound cops and escape are not statistically relevant IME.) Things that make you go "hmmm....."
 
#51 ·
You have no idea what firearms training they provide, only what the qualification cycle is.
exactly.. it does not allow for in service training/ CEU's, federal sponsored training, Police Olympics, enhanced training which may be required by agencies participating in Accreditation or individual range time on the agency dime. The Officers in my neck of the woods have quals once a year.. their department range is active nearly every day of the week.
 
#52 ·
The once a year qualification is standard around here too. That's what we are getting at. Once a year is not even close to enough to maintain proficiency. In addition, the qualifiers are not very challenging(at least the ones I've been part of for NE Ohio). We all realize that budgets are tight and that most cops never use their gun, but a monthly trip to the range is pretty cheap just in case they ever have to.
Qualification is not training, it is testing. Like one Chief told me of GOV training, "we don't teach you to be the best, just minimally proficient, if you want to be the best it is up to you."
 
#59 ·
Which seems to be the issue missed by the few LEO that think training w/ competition as practice is poop & once a year training, many agencies don't even do that, & a qual or two is gonna cut it in a fight. It's fine, lots of ostriches' in the LE community, I wish them god's speed..
 
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#53 ·
These comments are well intended with many good points made. It's way too complicated for me to even briefly make intelligent comments that will resonate. I've been on both sides, and extended up the ladder, firearms instructor at the Police Academy and for two Police Departments. Just let me say that there is the theoretical and the practical. I've gone to IDPA matches where the gun or guns being used cost more than a month's salary for the average cop. In other words they have an incentive by their love of shooting and firearms that quite honestly, most in law enforcement don't have, let alone the finances to enjoy. Yes, I know. If the incentive is there, you'll always find the time and money for it. And you can always practice with your duty weapon. In closing, I agree with most comments, and see all sides. This whole issue has always baffled me.
 
#54 ·
Let me ask; What does the Chief do if half (or more) of his department fail to meet the IDPA standards that are set? Forget the legal issues of using shooting at paper targets in a shooting game as the departmental standards rather than adopting the current FBI standards for qualifications?
 
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