Glock Talk banner

40 vs 9: Let's move on.

17K views 480 replies 65 participants last post by  fredj338 
#1 ·
A lot of bandwidth banter has been expended on the .40 in recent days; a lot has been expended. There are some who can accurately shoot and handle the .40 S&W and some that can't. I'm one of those that can.

If you fall in the category of those that don't have what it takes to use the .40 caliber, that's okay. You are still loved and respected. You are still valuable and you are no less of a man, woman or whatever your gender identification is on a given day.

The FBI made its choice for an adequate round and the 9mm won out. It's all good. 9mm lovers love your 9's. .40 officianados enjoy your .40's and let's move on down the road shall we?
 
#364 · (Edited)
Estimates for number of people in US who brandish/intimidate with a gun, and thus effectively stop a perceived threat without firing a shot, ranges from under 100,000 to over 2 million per year. Hardly any of these people are prosecuted, let alone convicted and sent to prison for an appreciable period of time for "brandishing." However, if instead of brandishing, in response to a perceived threat, these people started firing -- this would obviously result in massive number of people killed, beyond those already unjustifiably killed by guns, and would undoubtedly give politicians a persuasive reason to do away with "gun rights" -- for the benefit of the greater good. This is especially true since studies have also shown that a typical gun owner's gun is more likely to be used to injure or kill the gun owner or members of his family -- than would be used to stop a serious attack on himself or members of his family. That's something for quite a few civilians with notions that a self-defense gun should be either holstered or have a finger exerting pressure on the trigger to think about.
 
#375 ·
I have no issue with anyone carrying a 9mm, a .380, a .22 lr, or a BB gun. Just don't try to preach terminal ballistics "equality" or "superiority" compared to more powerful calibers. Got it?
in another forum I said that I didn't use 9mm for SD, well all hell broke loose with a member giving me the ballistic tables, more than once, he got so upset an offensive that if he could, he would have pull me from my PC to his, to beat me up, I ended up reporting him, and after all, he bumped the O P that I was responding to..
 
#378 · (Edited)
These caliber wars crack me up. There are those who believe you can't stop a threat with anything less than a .40 and those who think 10mm is some kind of cosmic wonder. I have to be honest, I don't see any difference between 9mm and .40, even 10mm just feels like a +P .40.

How did anyone defend themselves without these two calibers?? Have people ever been killed with 9mm rounds? What did the police carry before the S&W .40? Dead is dead, death does not care by which caliber.
 
#379 ·
These caliber wars crack me up. There are those who believe you can't stop a threat with anything less than a .40 and those who think 10mm is some kind of cosmic wonder. I have to be honest, I don't see any difference between 9mm and .40, even 10mm just feels like a +P .40.

How did anyone defend themselves without these two calibers?? Have people ever been killed with 9mm rounds? What did the police carry before the S&W .40? Dead is dead, death does not care by which caliber.
Actually, in 73% of cases, people killed by 9mm realized they are not dead after a period of 2-4 days and wind up leaving the morgue and heading home. Look it up.
 
#384 ·
My father is a retired police officer (LAPD) he worked from 1962-1983, carried a Smith and Wesson 38 special combat masterpiece for a very long time. Was involved in 5 shootings, all of which ended with 1-2 shots, all 5 shootings the bad guy was dead when he hit the floor. I have picked all the old timers heads about the shootings they were involved in, and all were happy with the performance with the .38 special. I think we make it a bigger deal then what it really is when arguing caliber choice. Talk to people who have actually shot people and see what they say. Rely on your skill set and and use a decent caliber and fight to see tomorrow if God forbid you find yourself in a situation that requires you to kill someone.
 
#392 ·
It is well known that virtually any caliber/round can incapacitate (and kill), if the bullet is suitably placed. What is apparently not widely appreciated is that there is a significant difference in incapacitation as a function of caliber/round when the bullet placement is marginal, as many civilian self-defense situations hardly facilitate optimum bullet placement.
 
#399 ·
I like them both
So do I.

I don't really feel like going through a guzzillian pages but add on to that first page quote.

For me it's all about splits and how much grain of metal you can deliver accurately in x-amout of time. Carrying a small gun the 9mm is not a bad choice.
Train with a timer and see what happens. Only hits count.
 
  • Like
Reactions: fredj338
#401 ·
Only hits delivered quickly count.;)
 
#409 ·
He was never hit during his shootings. And was shot once with a .22 mag in his 21 year career....and on that note, as my father was fond of saying, train train train and keep training because your life depends on it.
Ok, thanks for the information. Yes, one can never train enough to handle any situation that may be encountered; not getting hit but hitting the attacker, hard and well, is what allows one to walk away every single time.
 
#412 ·
The reality is, for me, that my. 380 is the best carry caliber. That would still hold true, regardless of legal restrictions (conceal carry, open carry).

I LOVE my .40's and my wife's 9's but they're just too bulky...
Don't sweat it. Even with a .380 or 9mm you are potentially substantially more able to defend yourself against an attack than the vast majority of people who don't carry any firearm and manage to survive and live a reasonably long life, nevertheless.
 
#413 ·
The reality is, for me, that my. 380 is the best carry caliber. That would still hold true, regardless of legal restrictions (conceal carry, open carry).

I LOVE my .40's and my wife's 9's but they're just too bulky...
I carry a gun because I may have to save my life with it, not to feel safe by carrying a gun. I won't carry a gun I can't fight with out to 50yds & against multiple attackers. Sure the chance of that happening are slim, but so is getting into any shooting at all. A pocket 380 with 6rds might be fine against a mugger, but so is a good folding fighting knife & some open hand skills.
I have no problem IWB a full size fighting pistol like a 1911 COM or my xd45c. Both light wt, both capable of dealing with even a SanBern type shooting. It is a diff world we live in today. WHo mugs anyone anyway, everyone carries a debit card nowdays. A 380 in your pocket is kinda slow, like a 380 in the bottom of a lady's purse. I know many carry with comfort in mind, but I wont. Those generally are the same people that wont get training or practice to skill level above competent. Just sayin.
 
#414 ·
To each his/her own.

I also believe that fitness should be everyone's first line of defense. I log between 15-20 miles a week running.

My hope is that I won't need more than I can carry in my pocket. I'll only draw my weapon as a last resort. Sure, I practice but I will never be a Jerry Miculek, won't even try.

More power to you, if you have the skills you infer.
 
#417 ·
Defense requirements in the real world do not occur within carefully controlled practice range conditions, nor do individual defense circumstances conform to statistics of any type. The best prepared individuals do not subscribe to any particular statistics.

If truly being prepared for what may be the darkest day of your life is very important to you... don't choose to carry your most easily or comfortably carried (smallest/lightest) firearm... choose to carry the most capable firearm you have, that you can reasonably carry and conceal, and be sure you have practiced with it enough so that you can shoot it very well. The last thing you want to have to do is pull out your pistol in a defensive situation. But it may save your life if you have to do it and you do it well. Carrying a gun IS a serious thing, not a fun hobby to be taken lightly.
 
#420 ·
I remember talking to a very famous homicide detective for LAPD before he passed away in the mid 90's. He told me of his partner who was in plain clothes at the time. He was crossing the street to go to the station and a guy on a bus jumped off and pulled a knife demanding money.

He reached in his back pocket as if he was getting his wallet, it's where he kept a .25 auto and emptied it in the guy's face killing him instantly ....Sometimes even those little pocket pistols come in handy!
 
#422 ·
Yeah I think I mentioned muggers. Again, good folding fighter probably solves that as well. Unless the guy has training, he I screwed in a knife fight with someone that has.
 
#424 ·
.40 vs. 9: everyone should have them.

P320 Full size .40 and Compact 9.
1. Have you shot them much?
2. How happy are you with them if you have?
3. How would you compare them with a gen3 Glock?
 
#428 · (Edited)
Just got back from the range!

My objectives from today's session were primarily to function test, determine how I like the feel of shooting the guns relative to my other guns, and to achieve a "break in" (if such was even needed). Most of my range time is spent with rapid fire, as one would do in a defensive situation. If I can shoot a pistol pretty well in that mode, then I'm comfortable with it as a carry gun. I don't do much slow, precision shooting.



This was what the P320s saw today:
P320 Full .40S&W
fired 136 rounds of 180 gr. American Eagle FMJ and 12 rounds of 180 gr. Gold Dot.

P320 Compact 9
fired 151 rounds of a mix of 115 gr. and 124 gr. American Eagle FMJ. I was initially hitting low with this pistol until I figured out "the hold" that it required (a bit higher!).

No bobbles, or failures of any kind with either pistol. They were both very enjoyable to shoot. And when I took my time, I could squeeze excellent accuracy out of them.

As compared to my M&P40, the P320 Full size forty was neck and neck. I like the both very much and would be equally comfortable using either in a defensive situation. They were on par with each other in terms of comfort to shoot, accuracy, and reliability. The trigger in my M&P40 is excellent, as is the trigger in the P320. The full size P320in .40S&W (4.7" barrel) is 1/2" longer in slide & barrel than the M&P40 (4.25" barrel) and as a result feels a bit nose heavy, which I like. It helps tame the muzzle during recoil. The M&P40 has a more balanced feel.

The P320 Compact nine was quite noticeably softer shooting than the .40S&W, as one would expect. I didn't shoot it back to back with any of my Glock nines, but I can say even without doing so, I like Glock nines, but the P320 is definitely a step up in how it feels to shoot it. Reliability was flawless; accuracy very good with a slightly higher hold than I started out with. Trigger definitely better than Glocks.

So far, it's looking like this pair of P320s are going to dominate my carry gun rotation. One or two more range sessions, and after hitting 300 rounds or so of "vetting", and this pair of P320s will be my carry guns.
 
#432 ·
I t
Very interesting. The only thing that concerns me about getting a P320 (and this would apply to anything that is not a Glock) is the substantial investment in magazines I'd have to make after the purchase of the gun. To tell you the truth I'm still on the fence about that gun in 40 vs. a Sig 1911. Off duty I'd want the Sig 1911 I've seen (in stainless) just for looks honestly. On duty (knowing it will be banged around) I'd lean towards the P320 with grips that can be economically replaced when I invariably damage them over time. Thanks for the reply.
I'm pretty well invested in Glock gear myself. Doesn't mean that they need to continue to be my primary guns, however.

I happily moved from my Glocks to my M&P40 and M&P40C a while back, with no desire to go back to the Glocks.

My 1911s are range guns at this point. The M&Ps and P320s shoot so well, so comfortably, and have much higher capacity. They're also more trouble free. And much less expensive. They don't have the "charm" nor the charisma that a good 1911 has, but I don't carry a gun for charm or charisma. For me, the M&P and P320 are the guns I would want in my hand should I have to defend myself in a nasty situation.

Now, I'm really enjoying how the P320 feels and shoots; a little more so than with my M&Ps and much more so than with my Glocks. So, I'm going to go with the P320s at this point. I don't think I will be going back to Glock nor to M&P, even though they are excellent guns. The P320s just feel so good and are so enjoyable to shoot. There is something "just right" about them that I haven't found with any other defense pistol platform.

Next move will be to acquire a P320 in .45auto.
 
#433 ·
Now you have me really wanting to get a 320 now. It is possible to go thru a local LEO that happens to buy one & not like it. They can then resell FTF thru a dealer. Hmmm?
BTW, never understood the "trouble free" issue of a good 1911. My match guns are boringly reliable as has been my carry gun, though I don't shoot the 1911pd as much, being alloy frame. If I have a stoppage, it's the ammo or a mag gone bad. No diff than a GLock or other pistol. The only caveat is most 1911s like to run on the wet side for max reliability. They will run dirty, but want a good gun grease to keep from slowing down. I think where most people get into trouble with the 1911 is "tuning" it. My best gun is a match grade, tight but not too tight. My carry gun is a box stock S&W 1911pd, only maybe 1000rds thru it but it shoots everything from 200gr LSWC practice ammo to HST or any other JHP I have tried.
 
  • Like
Reactions: fastbolt
#435 ·
I've got a Colt XSE stainless Government and a SW1911SC 5", both of which I bought new and have owned since '05. Both have been nicely monotonous for feeding & functioning reliability with a variety of the various duty JHP's I've used in them, using some different magazines.
 
  • Like
Reactions: fredj338
#436 · (Edited)
Do you live in Iraq? If you live here in the states and you engage even one target at 50 yards, you're probably going to spend some time as a guest of the state. If you try and claim self defense they'll just laugh at you.

LEOs have reason to do this. Private citizens do not.

If you live in a rural area and are expecting long distance shots, (again very unlikely in any kind of justifiable self defense situation) you really ought to have a long gun handy.

For a civilian, 50 yard shots with a handgun is something that should never happen, legally.
Respectfully, wrong. This is what I mean about the changing world we live in. One of the plans uncovered by the SanBern shooters was to cause a traffic jamb on a frwy over pass & walk along the line of cars & shoot people. WHere are you going to hide or run to? So I am pretty sure I have no legal issues engaging a bad guy at 150ft that is shooting at me & everyone else with a rifle when I have no clear avenue of escape.
People that carry outside their home need to adjust their thinking on the threats they may encounter today. There are several scenarios where a 50yd shot may be taken in def of one's life. The threat being 50yds away doesn't make it less of one. It isn't all that far, especially if your attacker is armed with a rifle. Dallas is another recent shooting where if you were there, had a 50yd shot, be nice if you could actually make that. A body shot on a man size target @ 50yds is certainly within the skill level of any decent shooter, even at full speed.
 
#437 ·
This is what I mean about the changing world we live in. One of the plans uncovered by the SanBern shooters was to cause a traffic jamb on a frwy over pass & walk along the line of cars & shoot people. WHere are you going to hide or run to? So I am pretty sure I have no legal issues engaging a bad guy at 150ft that is shooting at me & everyone else with a rifle when I have no clear avenue of escape.
People that carry outside their home need to adjust their thinking on the threats they may encounter today. There are several scenarios where a 50yd shot may be taken in def of one's life. The threat being 50yds away doesn't make it less of one. It isn't all that far, especially if your attacker is armed with a rifle. Dallas is another recent shooting where if you were there, had a 50yd shot, be nice if you could actually make that. A body shot on a man size target @ 50yds is certainly within the skill level of any decent shooter, even at full speed.
I get what you're saying and that's fine. You're responsible for every round you discharge. If you feel confident firing at a moving target 75 feet away, with a pistol, go for it.

I partially blame the media for the frenzy it continues to whip up...all while crying for disarmament...
 
#438 · (Edited)
Depends on the speed & size of the moving target but as Clint Eastwood said. "man's got to know his limitations". Seriously though, far too many that carry in public think they are ready for a fight but haven't plugged in all the possibles. Then throw in the unlikely, most really have no idea. IMO, practice for the 21ft attack, you are doomed to fail at anything outside that practice zone. Especially in todays changing threat levels. It's not about defending against a mugger anymore. Hype, maybe, or maybe it is the precursor to what is coming??
 
#441 ·
It does make sense to add in some longer range practice and some carefully squeezed off bulls-eye type practice, though the likelihood is that a self-defense situation will be within 20' and the shooting will be pretty rapid.

I think it's smart to practice for rapid fire accuracy at 20' - there won't be many bullseyes in such practice and the group will be largish, but rapid fire (without slow, very careful aim) is likely to be the nature of shooting in self-defense under duress.
 
#454 ·
It does make sense to add in some longer range practice and some carefully squeezed off bulls-eye type practice, though the likelihood is that a self-defense situation will be within 20' and the shooting will be pretty rapid.

I think it's smart to practice for rapid fire accuracy at 20' - there won't be many bullseyes in such practice and the group will be largish, but rapid fire (without slow, very careful aim) is likely to be the nature of shooting in self-defense under duress.
Into days enviro, longer shots that stretch your skill level are not out of the question. What is long for some is well within reach of others. Leo or civ, you do yourself a huge disservice practicing for the ubiquitous 7yd fight imo. With long gun armed nuts & terrorists, do you really want to NOT be able to effectively defend yourself or family at a mere 75 feet?
We had this debate just last week between some of the LEO & exp combat vets, came up with a stage at our match to push peoples skill levels. I maintain rapid hits beyond 25yds can be done with just a but of practice. The stage was 2 idpa targets @ 10yds, one 10" steel @ 30yds. Transition from close paper to far steel, changing positions 90deg as you transition. Most spent lots of ammo on the 30yd targets w/o hits, including the exp LEO. They Mostly revert to the, "that is for my rifle", but few of us carry a rifle in our cars. How fast can that 12rd, 3 transition. 2 position engagement, all hits take, 15.40sec. Fast enough, yeah.
 
#442 · (Edited)
Now you have me really wanting to get a 320 now. It is possible to go thru a local LEO that happens to buy one & not like it. They can then resell FTF thru a dealer. Hmmm?
BTW, never understood the "trouble free" issue of a good 1911. My match guns are boringly reliable as has been my carry gun, though I don't shoot the 1911pd as much, being alloy frame. If I have a stoppage, it's the ammo or a mag gone bad. No diff than a GLock or other pistol. The only caveat is most 1911s like to run on the wet side for max reliability. They will run dirty, but want a good gun grease to keep from slowing down. I think where most people get into trouble with the 1911 is "tuning" it. My best gun is a match grade, tight but not too tight. My carry gun is a box stock S&W 1911pd, only maybe 1000rds thru it but it shoots everything from 200gr LSWC practice ammo to HST or any other JHP I have tried.
I agree that 1911s can be quite reliable. However across the board, there seem to be more reliability issues with 1911s than with modern tupperware. The modern tupperware pistols are now capable of having very good and reasonably light triggers which can make them nearly as easy to shoot precision with, as with a 1911. And the tupperware typically offer much higher capacity, potentially a very significant factor in a shooting situation where a great many rounds that are fired will either miss the intended target or fail to achieve a quick "stop". I am a fan of the 1911 and have spent a lot more on them than I think I should have. But they are no longer my primary "go to" pistols.
 
#443 ·
Since i reside in a 10+1 state, mag cap takes a back seat to shootability & a good performing jhp. So the 1911 is still in my carry rotation. Nothing is as easy to shoot fast & accurate for me. Then again, i am limited to what i can own here.
 
#444 ·
I t


I'm pretty well invested in Glock gear myself. Doesn't mean that they need to continue to be my primary guns, however.

I happily moved from my Glocks to my M&P40 and M&P40C a while back, with no desire to go back to the Glocks.

My 1911s are range guns at this point. The M&Ps and P320s shoot so well, so comfortably, and have much higher capacity. They're also more trouble free. And much less expensive. They don't have the "charm" nor the charisma that a good 1911 has, but I don't carry a gun for charm or charisma. For me, the M&P and P320 are the guns I would want in my hand should I have to defend myself in a nasty situation.

Now, I'm really enjoying how the P320 feels and shoots; a little more so than with my M&Ps and much more so than with my Glocks. So, I'm going to go with the P320s at this point. I don't think I will be going back to Glock nor to M&P, even though they are excellent guns. The P320s just feel so good and are so enjoyable to shoot. There is something "just right" about them that I haven't found with any other defense pistol platform.

Next move will be to acquire a P320 in .45auto.
You have got me wondering after all of this if you've tried a Ruger American yet? I have one in 9mm and love the way it feels, the quality of it, the accuracy, and finally the trigger that it would be my duty gun if I could get it in 10mm.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top