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.40 is dying?

47K views 1K replies 152 participants last post by  fortyofforty 
#1 ·
This was my response today at an lgs while I was fondling a g27. Searching for a New daily carry and I'm looking hard at 357 sig and .40 to get the job done. During the conversation the guy behind the counter tells me that because the fbi has quit using the 40 that I should consider 9mm. Said the 40 is now a dying cartridge. Wow? Really? Idk, I just ain't buying it..
 
#685 ·
Que-ee-dee is our resident fan of Fordy
He hears someone mention 9...oh Lordy

Children gather around from far and Near
To hear Que-ee-dee talk about his Gear

He tells em' the fordy is like a 9 and a Half
The kids shake their heads and start to Laugh

He yells You know nothing You little Brats
A kid yells back...you just make-up Stats

QED then jumps up and grabs his Holster
Points to the wall and shows them a Poster

He'd drawn some charts thinkin' he was Clever
The kids rolled their eyes and said Whatever

He got all powty and sent em' Outside
It was time to save face or run and Hide

Pew pew pew he fires his Pistola
Claiming the fordy kills faster than Ebola

Lead flyin' high and lead flyin' Low
As Q was yellin' watch Big Daddy Go

He holsters his fordy and turns to the Crowd
"That's how it's done" he yells real Loud

Johny said But the only thing you hit was your wife's car Fender
He said that don't matter...one look at my fordy and they'll Surrender.

Q said I hope you learned a lot and you're now a fordy Fan
Little Tommy yelled out...we shoulda stayed home and played Pokeman

;-)
 
#686 ·
Many of us non-LEOs don't have access to a range that allows moving about with a loaded weapon or even rapid fire. Looks like this experience / training means generally paying at a special school.
Well you have to pay for good training, but one or two good classes, then practice is on you. Idpa will challenge your skill level; shooting from diff positions of cover, standing, kneeling, prone, weak hand, strong hamd only, while moving, moving targets, moving targets while moving, pretty much everything you will do in a fight. No, it is NOT training, but find me a better way to practice & improve my skill set, i'm there.
 
#687 ·
Good point the great majority of civilian gun fights are 5 yards or less, 4 or 5 shots or less, more likely to be a one handed grip as not with a point and shoot technique, with as much focus given to avoiding being shot or escaping as shooting back. The BGs usually don't carry timers so they wont know to be impressed with your split times but they will be impressed with being shot with a round powerful enough to get their attention.
Again rail, you poopoo competition, but it makes any shooter a better shooter. That will impress your adversary. Since you seem to miss the point at times, split times are just a measure of ones ability to put accurate shots on target at speed, a way to measure your improvement of trigger control. If you can land 6 in an 8" com at 10yds, from the holster in 3sec, good, 2.5sec, better. Then there is transition times, but i think that is a bit over your head right now.:poke:
 
#688 ·
"Implications" of written words are funny things; they are formed completely inside the reader's head, and may be biased by the person's previous experiences. Again, I didn't see the post, but unless there were some serious always/never-type qualifiers, most folks would take this as "sometimes water falls from the sky", not "water only falls from the sky, and can't possibly come from anywhere else". Given the amount of variables (presentation angle, skull thickness at various points, impact angle), I can't see most reasonable persons taking it any other way. Same with the comments on skull thickness.

If a person is making truly outlandish claims, it will probably become clear to all, eventually; no need to point it out, call them names, or make snide comments. If anything, asking them how to overcome such a problem is sometimes more...instructive (known in some circles as "giving them enough rope to hang themselves").

Bickering about "proof" and "facts" just drive people away from the discussion(s), and eventually, the site, and we'd prefer that not happen.

I think everyone needs to dial it back just a bit, listen to each other, and maybe learn from others' experiences. I know I've had some very weird stuff happen to me, and although I would not necessarily use a one-off as an example or a reason to change a habit or behavior, expanding your knowledge base can be helpful, as none of us has "seen it all", nor are we likely to. A couple of months ago, a guy posted about a weird stoppage he'd had with his Glock, along with what caused it. As it was interesting, I made a mental note of it. Several months later, another user logs-in and describes a problem he's having with his Glock. I tell him to check something, and that was what was causing the problem. He's amazed! I'm a Glock-troubleshooting-Deity! No, not at all; but I do read a lot, and try to learn from other folks' experiences, as well as my own.

Did you see the thread about the fishing guide that shot the brown bear with the 3.5" barreled subcompact DAO 9mm, and killed it dead at spittin' distance? Is this more or less believable than an instance of a bullet bouncing off a dog's head? I know how I'd vote -- and I'd be wrong. Luckily, the guy had witnesses, a camera, and Game & Fish to inspect the carcass.
In one of the other forums with which I participate, the mods tend to just pull out the ban stick to deal with objectionable bickering. 30 days in the hole seems to help in this way.

But I have to say, your approach is better. This post should be at the entrance of the forums, one of those "click here that you have read this" things.
 
#689 ·
Many of us non-LEOs don't have access to a range that allows moving about with a loaded weapon or even rapid fire. Looks like this experience / training means generally paying at a special school.
Just look for outdoor ranges. The one I belong to, you have bays. You have free reign in your bay to draw, move, run timers, rapid fire, set up targets, chronographs, use reactive targets, etc.

Yeah, it gets hot in the summer (take water), it's cold in the winter (take a jacket), it's nasty when it rains (go when it's dry; or better yet, train in the rain). Many advantages over indoor ranges where you just shoot.

And guess what? Membership is a fraction of the indoor ranges!
 
#696 · (Edited)
"Implications" of written words are funny things; they are formed completely inside the reader's head, and may be biased by the person's previous experiences. Again, I didn't see the post, but unless there were some serious always/never-type qualifiers, most folks would take this as "sometimes water falls from the sky", not "water only falls from the sky, and can't possibly come from anywhere else". Given the amount of variables (presentation angle, skull thickness at various points, impact angle), I can't see most reasonable persons taking it any other way. Same with the comments on skull thickness.

If a person is making truly outlandish claims, it will probably become clear to all, eventually; no need to point it out, call them names, or make snide comments. If anything, asking them how to overcome such a problem is sometimes more...instructive (known in some circles as "giving them enough rope to hang themselves").

Bickering about "proof" and "facts" just drive people away from the discussion(s), and eventually, the site, and we'd prefer that not happen.

I think everyone needs to dial it back just a bit, listen to each other, and maybe learn from others' experiences. I know I've had some very weird stuff happen to me, and although I would not necessarily use a one-off as an example or a reason to change a habit or behavior, expanding your knowledge base can be helpful, as none of us has "seen it all", nor are we likely to. A couple of months ago, a guy posted about a weird stoppage he'd had with his Glock, along with what caused it. As it was interesting, I made a mental note of it. Several months later, another user logs-in and describes a problem he's having with his Glock. I tell him to check something, and that was what was causing the problem. He's amazed! I'm a Glock-troubleshooting-Deity! No, not at all; but I do read a lot, and try to learn from other folks' experiences, as well as my own.

Did you see the thread about the fishing guide that shot the brown bear with the 3.5" barreled subcompact DAO 9mm, and killed it dead at spittin' distance? Is this more or less believable than an instance of a bullet bouncing off a dog's head? I know how I'd vote -- and I'd be wrong. Luckily, the guy had witnesses, a camera, and Game & Fish to inspect the carcass.
I understand your point, but the exchange involved clearly expressed inadequacy of that 9mm LE ammo to penetrate some dogs' skulls, which is non-factual. Sure, virtually any handgun round is inadequate if the placement is not suitable; but that's different from making a claim that some dogs, unlike humans, have "armor skulls" and thus whether a shot with that LE ammo is low, high or straight and center on a dog's skull it doesn't penetrate - unlike in humans. This is the non-factual claim that was challenged. When it was pointed out to that particular poster that another poster had expressed that he knows of instances where a human was shot in the head with a .44 Magnum and survived -- that was dismissed by the non-factual poster due to "lack of proof." The point that some of these non-factual claims should not be addressed is certainly a valid one -- since sometimes the discussion cannot be continued on a factual basis.
Incidentally, I would not have raised the factual issue of his non-factual claim, had he not insultingly (and wrongly) criticized others, (Pit Bull thread, post #122: "I read a few replies and then just couldn't go on. Right on front page are a ton of folks who are just pure full of it"), including me, who posted that service caliber pistols are adequate for self-defense against dogs (obviously with proper placement). Obviously, he was not at all receptive to the fact that it was not the inadequacy of the round, but inadequate placement, location on the skull and the angle, of course.
 
#716 ·
The point that some of these non-factual claims should not be addressed is certainly a valid one -- since sometimes the discussion cannot be continued on a factual basis.
If, by your own words/definition, "...the discussion cannot be continued on a factual basis.", then don't continue it.

Disengage.

Don't respond.

Use your Ignore list, if necessary.

I'm not saying that what I'm about to say applies to this specific situation, but it's an important consideration: The one thing that certain personalities need, is attention. If you ignore these folks and don't reply to them, they either go away, or they escalate the situation so much they get themselves banned. Don't let them take you down the drain when they get flushed.

If you have a hard time stopping yourself from responding, then the Ignore list is a better choice. You can't respond to what you don't see.
 
#700 · (Edited)
Que-ee-dee is our resident fan of Fordy
He hears someone mention 9...oh Lordy

Children gather around from far and Near
To hear Que-ee-dee talk about his Gear

He tells em' the fordy is like a 9 and a Half
The kids shake their heads and start to Laugh

He yells You know nothing You little Brats
A kid yells back...you just make-up Stats

QED then jumps up and grabs his Holster
Points to the wall and shows them a Poster

He'd drawn some charts thinkin' he was Clever
The kids rolled their eyes and said Whatever

He got all powty and sent em' Outside
It was time to save face or run and Hide

Pew pew pew he fires his Pistola
Claiming the fordy kills faster than Ebola

Lead flyin' high and lead flyin' Low
As Q was yellin' watch Big Daddy Go

He holsters his fordy and turns to the Crowd
"That's how it's done" he yells real Loud

Johny said But the only thing you hit was your wife's car Fender
He said that don't matter...one look at my fordy and they'll Surrender.

Q said I hope you learned a lot and you're now a fordy Fan
Little Tommy yelled out...we shoulda stayed home and played Pokeman

;-)
You are confusing trying to "convert" others to .40 cal with providing facts about .40 cal. Some, evidently, are not impressed with facts, whether they know them or not. Nothing wrong with 9mm; it's far better than nothing.
 
#709 ·
If capacity is limited, I agree that bigger makes a lot more sense, and .45 anything makes the most sense of all.
 
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#711 ·
OR just gun ergonomics. My xd45c is the same size as a G19, I really do not like GLocks, shoot the xd45c far better, even with the extra recoil of the 45. So it is my choice, in my 10+1 state. Funny though, I do shoot my G26 better than any of my other Glocks, yes I have more than one, just don't like them much.
 
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#710 ·
All the service calibers are close enough in energy to be good enough. So it comes down to bullet design. If the bullet reaches 65-70 cal, penetrates to vitals, I don't really care where it started. It is just easier to get that out of a 45 than a 9 or 40. More bullet mass = great probable expansion. So for many of us, it will come down to the platform. More bullets are better than less, but then throw in the handful of states with mag limits of 7-10, now it is more about what you shoot best, at speed. Slow fire accuracy is irrelevant in a fight, any fight.
 
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#713 ·
Yeah the grip safety isn't a big deal to me, It sits high enough, impossible to miss it, maybe because I am a long time 1911 guy. The XD line are amazing shooters thoiugh, stupid accurate & soft shooting in any caliber, even 40.:p;)
 
#714 ·
Supporting the 40, I recently bought a new Gen 3 Glock 22.
 
#717 ·
I was just out yesterday shooting my Sig 229 in .40. Im not getting rid of it and .40 ammo is everywhere in this region. It has lost a bit of popularity but its still one of the main service calibers out there. It hits harder than a 9 and can be shot fast. No problem. Watch some Hickock 45 videos. He seems to shoot it quickly and accurately.
 
#719 ·
40 is still the most popular leo round out here, chp, many sheriff's dept. i haven't bought 40 brass since the 1st 4006 i bought back in the 90s. In a heavy gun like a 4006, pretty easy shooter.
 
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#720 ·
Yes, and it will remain highly popular--if not the most popular--LEO round for many years. It truly took off like a rocket following the FBI's testing and approval of the round. I never found the recoil to be bad. Even in lightweight pistols, it is extremely manageable. While not allowing followup shots as quick as 9mm, they still come pretty quickly. The point is, if you think .40 S&W will solve a problem that 9mm won't, you fail to understand simple concepts like terminal ballistics and the realities of actual shooting incidents. 9mm is certainly gaining in popularity, but it's a high mountain to climb to supplant .40 S&W among law enforcement agencies.
 
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#721 ·
The definition of "fact" seems to be part of the problem.

If you personally witness water falling from the sky, do you not consider it a fact that water sometimes falls from the sky? If not, why not? If so, why would you not allow others the same option of defining something they personally witnessed as being a fact, at least some of the time?
That is the EXACT problem here. If what a person witnesses doesn't fit his study then he carries out an argument to the point of making insults if given enough time. Studies are nice but studies don't kill things.
 
#722 ·
I understand your point, but the exchange involved clearly expressed inadequacy of that 9mm LE ammo to penetrate some dogs' skulls, which is non-factual. Sure, virtually any handgun round is inadequate if the placement is not suitable; but that's different from making a claim that some dogs, unlike humans, have "armor skulls" and thus whether a shot with that LE ammo is low, high or straight and center on a dog's skull it doesn't penetrate - unlike in humans. This is the non-factual claim that was challenged. When it was pointed out to that particular poster that another poster had expressed that he knows of instances where a human was shot in the head with a .44 Magnum and survived -- that was dismissed by the non-factual poster due to "lack of proof." The point that some of these non-factual claims should not be addressed is certainly a valid one -- since sometimes the discussion cannot be continued on a factual basis.
Incidentally, I would not have raised the factual issue of his non-factual claim, had he not insultingly (and wrongly) criticized others, (Pit Bull thread, post #22: "I read a few replies and then just couldn't go on. Right on front page are a ton of folks who are just pure full of it"), including me, who posted that service caliber pistols are adequate for self-defense against dogs (obviously with proper placement). Obviously, he was not at all receptive to the fact that it was not the inadequacy of the round, but inadequate placement, location on the skull and the angle, of course.
Outright lies. Quote me.
I was speaking of a centered shot just above the brow. You have been even shown an xray of a dog with an obviously thicker skull.

Also quote where I dismissed the possibility of a person being shot by a 44mag in the head and surviving.

I quoted you showing where you insulted others just this week. It's easy for you to post more lies. The hard part is for you to show proof. Your arguments are one thing but your outright lies when it comes to my posts only speak to your desperation. This is a discussion on a forum so it really makes me wonder what your motivations are.
 
#723 ·
Outright lies. Quote me.
I was speaking of a centered shot just above the brow. You have been even shown an xray of a dog with an obviously thicker skull.

Also quote where I dismissed the possibility of a person being shot by a 44mag in the head and surviving.

I quoted you showing where you insulted others just this week. It's easy for you to post more lies. The hard part is for you to show proof. Your arguments are one thing but your outright lies when it comes to my posts only speak to your desperation. This is a discussion on a forum so it really makes me wonder what your motivations are.
He won't. He can't. He's a troll. All he does is post nonsense to get a reaction. He is the definition of a troll, in elf's clothing. Since he cannot conduct himself in a respectful manner, and immediately resorts to insulting other posters, he graduated to my "Ignore" list. Buh bye.
 
#724 ·
40 is still the most popular leo round out here, chp, many sheriff's dept. i haven't bought 40 brass since the 1st 4006 i bought back in the 90s. In a heavy gun like a 4006, pretty easy shooter.
I agree, when I lived in SF Bay Area, a couple of the indoor ranges I shot at literally were awash in .40 brass. I have never bought a 40 case and I shoot more of it than any other caliber these days (I even use premium 40 brass for some of my 10mm loads, loaded to 10mm OAL's). A friend started reloading 40 a while back. He asked about 40 brass, where to buy it? I walked back into the garage, pulled out one of my 5 gal buckets full of fired 40 and gave it to him. I said, "there, now you don't have to count when you are picking up your spent cases..."
 
#727 ·
What are the numbers? How many people using each of the cartridges/calibers?

How many sworn does CHP have, maybe 8k?
I think CHP has about 7000 sworn, SFPD about 2000 (SIG in 40 S&W), the SF sheriff's department I think was about 600 (can't remember for certain) and I believe they are/were a few years ago 9mm Glocks, but that isn't as important as they aren't generally called to discharge a weapon, being mainly jailers and bailiffs and such..
 
#728 ·
Amazing how the same physics that supposedly makes one round much more effective than the next has absolutely no impact on recoil. None whatsoever. It's just free energy, out of thin air. No Newton. No Einstein. Just Hermey's magical laws of physics. :dancingbanana:
 
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#729 ·
Ok, I'm impressed that you heard of Einstein and Newton! They would undoubtedly be impressed as well! However, no one but you, that I know of, claims that .40 cal has the same recoil as 9mm (same size pistol, typical SD rounds). Hint: Recoil is significantly greater and terminal ballistics are significantly better, .40 cal vs. 9mm! Imagine that!
 
#735 ·
Actually sectional density is highest in 147 grain 9mm, then 230 grain .45, and lastly 180 grain .40, unless my calculations are wrong. Sectional density gets you penetration, which is the first key to effectiveness.
 
#742 ·
Se

Sec den only applies to non expanding bullets though. Once the bullet expands, seC Den changes. So its only really a ballpark number. A 230gr xtp can end up with a great sec den than a HST, smaller frontal area & longer shank than the hst.
Of course, and the expansion characteristics of the bullet also come into play. A high(er) energy round like a .357 SIG might expand violently, but fail to penetrate because suddenly its sectional density has fallen off. A slower, heavier 230 grain .45 ACP bullet might plod along, expand more slowly, and penetrate to needed depths. The same can be true for a 147 grain 9mm. If designed properly--as modern bullets are, especially those available since 2007 :poke:--a 9mm bullet can penetrate better than comparable .40 S&W rounds. Penetration is, in conjunction with shot placement, the most important factor in stopping a threat.
 
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#743 · (Edited)
Of course, and the expansion characteristics of the bullet also come into play. A high(er) energy round like a .357 SIG might expand violently, but fail to penetrate because suddenly its sectional density has fallen off.
What? You don't appreciate .357 Sig but did deem the infamous 9mm 115 grain Silvertip effective? Now you seem to be beginning to somewhat appreciate adequate penetration! Progress..... LOL.
A slower, heavier 230 grain .45 ACP bullet might plod along, expand more slowly, and penetrate to needed depths. The same can be true for a 147 grain 9mm. If designed properly--as modern bullets are, especially those available since 2007 :poke:--a 9mm bullet can penetrate better than comparable .40 S&W rounds. Penetration is, in conjunction with shot placement, the most important factor in stopping a threat.
I rejoiced in your learning -- too quickly.... Sure, minimally expanded 9mm JHP (not to mention FMJ) can penetrate more than fully expanded .40 cal JHP -- but as Fackler (remember him?) correctly stated the bigger handgun bullet is more effective -- if it penetrates ADEQUATELY (not necessary or desirable to penetrate more than adequately)! No matter how much improvement there has been in 9mm since 2007 (not much except in the imagination of 9mm fanatics), physics (pardon me) will make sure that 9mm will never be terminally equal to .40 cal. You can quote me... LOL.
 
#748 · (Edited)
Ammunition is designed, using physics, to perform at a range of velocities. However, ammunition is also designed to expand at a certain rate and penetrate to a range of depths, after penetrating various barriers. A heavier bullet will generally tend to penetrate further than a lighter bullet, and often a slower bullet will penetrate further than a lighter, faster bullet. That's just reality, although some don't want to accept it.
 
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#749 ·
Ammunition is designed, using physics, to perform at a range of velocities.
Yes, physics (pardon me) governs design of bullets -- which indeed optimally perform in a certain velocity range.
However, ammunition is also designed to expand at a certain rate and penetrate to a range of depths, after penetrating various barriers.
That's the general idea carried out in practice with varying success.
A heavier bullet will generally tend to penetrate further than a lighter bullet
Not necessarily, depends.
and often a slower bullet will penetrate further than a lighter bullet. That's just reality, although some don't want to accept it.
Wrong. That's your misconception that doesn't make any sense whatsoever -- as stated.
But, keep learning and trying....
 
#751 ·
I'll just park this right here. What it tells you is during the same time frame that the 9mm became adequate, the .40 became equal to or better than the .45ACP albeit in a package that can hold up to 16 rounds. Additionally, when Hillary is coronated, 9mm ammo will be as scarce as hen's teeth. You make the call.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
After '86 shootout and subsequent two years of comprehensive terminal testing, FBI's Urey Patrick concluded that .40 cal is terminally slightly superior to .45 ACP -- that's why the FBI went with 40 cal (under assumption that agents could shoot it reasonably well).
 
#752 · (Edited)
.40S&W sure isn't dying at my place. I LOVE forty with the right platform to launch it with.

I added a new forty (and a nine) just today! (Been thinking about going with P320s for a while now and Cabela's current sale on them clinched the deal.

P320 Full in .40S&W and P320 Carry in 9mm. Both with night sights.


 
#753 ·
.40S&W sure isn't dying at my place. I LOVE forty with the right platform to launch it with.

I added a new forty (and a nine) just today! (Been thinking about going with P320s for a while now and Cabela's current sale on them clinched the deal.

P320 Full in .40S&W and P320 Carry in 9mm. Both tight night sights.


D I'm proud of you. Any time you buy A firearm, you piss off a liberal let alone TWO firearms! WELL DONE.
 
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