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Question???

2K views 37 replies 22 participants last post by  RussP 
#1 ·
You are in a parking lot of Walmart. You are putting the things you bought in your car. Three individuals approach you, and you tell them to stop, they say we just want to ask you a question and keep coming toward you, they don't look very friendly.
When do you draw you pistol? Can you draw your pistol as soon as you tell them to stop and they keep coming? They are 3 guys and remember the 21 feet.
 
#2 ·
Personal opinion. Not a lawyer. First it depends on the laws where you live.

But the first thing I'd do is drop my packages and move my hand to my CCW while simultaneously at high volume so the rest of the parking lot heard me tell them that they were close enough to ask a question and not to come any closer. After that if they get any closer they'd get the phrase 'STOP ... I will defend myself if necessary' while I moved to put my vehicle, packages, cart between me and them.

If it went ANY further, darn rootin tootin i'd be drawn and screaming my fool head off at them!

There is absolutely no sane reason for three people to approach someone with that vague of a statement other than they are up to no good. Bad things are about to happen.

Just one guys opinion...
 
#3 ·
Don't speak. If they get too close (WAR Zone, Within Arm's Reach), just smoke them. Then, make sure you're the first to call 911.
 
#4 ·
people can split hairs on "brandishing" all they want, and the resident legal experts (some self proclaimed) will here..but here's my course of action.

Warning has been issued, their intent to still approach is shown, I would expose my weapon and repeat to them to stop and look one of them dead in the eye. I said expose, not fully draw. Move clothing, hand on weapon, maybe a slight pull up on it (depending on how you carry) to make YOUR intent known to them if they continue.

Ive been in this situation plenty of times, and it works. Without getting all crazy your intent to defend yourself is clearly known. I had my kid in the car at a gas station, one of the typical "I need money people" comes around. he acknowledges my kid and says he doesn't want to bother me and my kid- a stern "then don't" I say to him. He continues and is a little closer, I expose and tell him to go away...he does. This isn't difficult and no one can actually answer these questions for you- its a time and place thing... MAKE THE DECISION YOU CAN LIVE WITH
 
#6 ·
As Sam said, state plays a big role in self defense law.

Biggest thing is that you are not on your private property, your in a public parking lot. You do have the authority to command anyone to stop approaching at a distance you determine. Maybe their car is just past yours or next to it. Asking questions is not against the law nor is it considered an assault, at least no place I've ever heard of.

Many states require you to retreat prior to introducing deadly force. There are most likely going to be more chances of needing less than lethal force in day to day life. Pepper spray may be a good addition to self defense. Drawing on three approaching individuals may be a major error if they turn out to be plain clothes LEOs wanting to ask questions regarding an incident that you may or may not have been aware of.

Know the force continuum, know your laws, follow both.

As a very generic rule of thumb:

Acknowledge presence

Ask to maintain distance

Warn that your feeling threatened

Retreat (if required)

Prepare to defend yourself
 
#7 ·
hand on weapon, square up, put on mean face, speak loudly and distinctly. demand they stop and maintain their distance, retreating if necessary. try to get the car between them and you.
maintain space, be aware there may be another close by, open the eyes in the back of your head.
had two try to pull a fast one on me some years back. I might be old, but I am not stupid. I will also not be any bodies bi_ch. the pistol was obvious enough, and my demeanor forceful. they retreated and I allowed that to happen. called the police, gave a description of them and the incident. someone else would be in their crosshairs.
 
#8 ·
I would want something quite a bit more concrete than just they were walking toward me and did not look friendly to hang my hat on to explain why I thought I needed to seriously escalate toward deadly force to protect myself.
 
#9 ·
Agreed. Like you already told them to stop and they keep coming toward you with a response of they just want to ask a question. If they are close enough to hear you say that they are close enough to stop and respect your space and ask a question...if they aren't nuts, on drugs, or thieves.

Just basing off the OP scenario.

Like I said, nothing normal or sane about three people approaching you with a 'question', much less they keep coming after you tell them to stop. That's hair on the back of the neck behavior in my book.

If the three people are grandma and two 5 year olds looking not so friendly , well then that changes things.
 
#10 ·
#11 ·
Not normal, not sane, on drugs, refusing to respect someone's space, asking a question might possibly be a clue but in at least some states may not be quite enough to take a substantial step towards deadly force that is legally justified.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Definitely. Definitely depends on where you live and the legal situation you might find yourself in as a result. Didn't mean to suggest otherwise. Caveat to all of this is know your specific situation and think out ahead of time the ramifications of your actions.

Personally, I always wear my running shoes anywhere I go of concern to me and my plan is to put as much distance as possible between me and them. If they pursue me until I have no choice, well then...
 
#13 ·
Robhic, thanks for posting that, I am going to print that and give it to a girl at work who spent 15 minutes last night on her front porch trying to convice a sat tv salesman/installer to leave. Listening to her telling that story, step, by, step about made me ill, so many opportunities for her to be hurt.
 
#14 ·
That document is really great. Scariest part of the read for me was the point when he's explaining the C1 position and that second guy is just behind him. Kinda makes the case for appendix carry to a point. But more than that, the statement about "in my opinion people go to this tactic far to cavalierly without thinking about all the implications of what they’re doing in the context of criminal assault patterns", that really hits home and not something I necessarily have thought of. Seems obvious now, duh.

I've always thought, if I had to defend myself, I'm prepared technically. But the level of awareness that LEO training brings to the table like what this guy is talking about is a total 'nother level if you ask me. Cool stuff. For those of you that are LEO, hats off to you not just for what you do, but for sharing your knowledge like this w/ the rest of us.

I would also encourage anybody to consider a CCW class for your own benefit. Not all places REQUIRE you to take a CCW class to get a CCW permit if you have other experience/training with firearms...and some places don't require anything. But the legal information specific to your state is extremely helpful in getting you thinking about how to protect yourself. Same goes for self defense courses and such.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Kind of funny, as I just went through a class last weekend, taught by an attorney who works on gun cases here primarily. I live in a pretty red state but she left no doubt, you do not show your gun to try and induce someone to leave you alone. She was categorical in this, it is brandishing and if the police are called, you will be arrested. She used a number of examples of pulling a garment back to reveal a holstered gun, to unholstering and raising it up, again to "warn". In each example, she said, "if you do this and the people you were warning off go to the police and there is a witness, you will go to jail and almost certainly lose your carry rights if convicted".

I really liked the tutorial in the link, one thing that differed in what was taught in my class to what the linked tutorial taught was what could be called "escalation". The advice to use profanity to speak the language of thugs went against what she taught. She focused on non-escalation, especially verbally. Shouting to stop, go no further, back up, hands up in a stop sign, that you don't want trouble, etc. were all positive. She explained profanity would be escalating and she was emphatic that escalation took your rights to a self defense argument away pretty quickly. She was very firm, anything that looked like you made the first escalating move was very bad in a courtroom.

The real problem is defining the threat and in the terms outside witnesses could relate to when the worst case happened and you found yourself in court. I think in the tutorial linked, with two possible assailants moving in, unheeding your command to stop and not identifying themselves as police or store security, you have a pretty good case to draw and present, demanding they leave you be. Not sure it is as cut and dried if it were a single assailant, at least until they made a more specific threatening jesture. At least that is the way the attorney explained it here in my red state.

In any case, if it is undercover cops or armed security, you are probably going to have a pretty bad day.

PS - one thing she did emphasize is be the first to call 911 as soon as the threat leaves the immediate area. If they call first and report some nut waving a gun around in the store parking lot, bad juju.
 
#17 ·
ind of funny, as I just went through a class last weekend, taught by an attorney who works on gun cases here primarily. I live in a pretty red state but she left no doubt, you do not show your gun to try and induce someone to leave you alone. She was categorical in this, it is brandishing and if the police are called, you will be arrested. She used a number of examples of pulling a garment back to reveal a holstered gun, to unholstering and raising it up, again to "warn". In each example, she said, "if you do this and the people you were warning off go to the police and there is a witness, you will go to jail and almost certainly lose your carry rights if convicted".
That attorney may be correct in your area, but not everywhere. As SamSpade pointed out, that depends on where you are located. In TX, this is a justifiable defense. In fact, the law as written, states that you minimize or remove the threat via the least amount of force necessary. Showing your pistol, if concealed, is a show of force. Reaching for it and resting your hand on it, is a show of 'force'. it is not deadly force, it is merely 'force'. Even when you draw it, and train it in a direction, it is still a use of force. It is a justifiable use of force if your show of force is enough to cause fear or apprehension in the aggressor such to the degree that they cease the threat or flee the area. Deadly force, is discharging the weapon.

Scenario:
You're standing around talking to friends. Someone comes up to you for whatever reason and tells you that he's going to "insert aggressive action here". You tell him you don't want trouble, to please leave you alone, but he persists. He even grabs a rock, a chair, a stick or some other device that can be used as a weapon to hurt you. You lift your shirt and he see your pistol. He suddenly "uh-oh's" and starts commenting on how you'd be nothing without your pistol as he back pedals. This is the justifiable use of force.

If you warn by showing, and he persists, then you're now clear to draw and further clarify your intentions to defend yourself by necessary means. He leaves at the draw of the weapon. Justifiable use of force.

If he persists even after you draw, or even attacks, now you have a justifiable use of deadly force.

HOWEVER:

if he threatens, or mouths off with no real action... and you immediately draw and train... well now you are wrong by engaging in unlawful deadly conduct.

Remember, I am speaking of TX. Things change state by state.
 
#18 ·
with me its not about what I can do.. its what I must do. 3 men beating on me is a potentially perilous situation, I don't think I am going to allow that to happen. That being said, I do not consider my gun to be an explanation point to be waved around. If I simply must use it, I will pull it and if I don't have to use it, I wont.
 
#20 ·
Tell them to stop and start backing away and I mean seriously backing away. If they continue to advance I think you would have every right to draw. If you're actually near your car as in your hypothetical and you have your keys in hand press the alarm.

PS. Don't forget situational awareness, check your 3, 6, and 9.
 
#23 ·
I really liked the tutorial in the link, one thing that differed in what was taught in my class to what the linked tutorial taught was what could be called "escalation". The advice to use profanity to speak the language of thugs went against what she taught. She focused on non-escalation, especially verbally.

PS - one thing she did emphasize is be the first to call 911 as soon as the threat leaves the immediate area. If they call first and report some nut waving a gun around in the store parking lot, bad juju.
Not trying to minimize the attorney's input here, but I've read (as in the link I posted) a few cops' scenarios and they generally advise the "thug language" style. I have another (WARNING!):

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html

in which an undercover policeman who worked "ghetto detail" I guess you'd call it, advised some really rough "conversation." Street cops vs. an attorney? I'm going with the guys in the trenches!

The part about being the first to call 911 is VERY important, however. Mas Ayoob stresses that one ALL the time as it can work against you if the original perp calls first and says there's a guy with a gun at ____. YOU are now the perp! Bad JuJu is right!!!
 
#24 · (Edited)
Not trying to minimize the attorney's input here, but I've read (as in the link I posted) a few cops' scenarios and they generally advise the "thug language" style. I have another (WARNING!):

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html

in which an undercover policeman who worked "ghetto detail" I guess you'd call it, advised some really rough "conversation." Street cops vs. an attorney? I'm going with the guys in the trenches!

The part about being the first to call 911 is VERY important, however. Mas Ayoob stresses that one ALL the time as it can work against you if the original perp calls first and says there's a guy with a gun at ____. YOU are now the perp! Bad JuJu is right!!!
I understand your point of view. It has been my experience when taking training, you get various different viewpoints and each has merit and limitations. Another example of this in her class was the question of carrying reloads, versus factory LE type ammo (I asked it :) ). She smirked and said, I would love to run into a prosecutor who used this kind of attack, it is an extremely weak case. I have heard other very expert people say categorically to never carry reloads as your SD ammo (beyond reliability concerns), only carry what the local Agencies are using. So it goes.

To me the most vexing issue is the determination of what constitutes a genuine threat in a fast moving situation and what witnesses are going to say when the shooting is done. I guess it always comes down in the end to preferring to be judged by 12 versus carried by 6.

PS - thinking more about it, in some ways they both may be right, from the perspective with which they are operating. The attorney is operating from the standpoint of a litigator trying to convince a jury you didn't escalate a deadly encounter, the cop is operating from the standpoint of avoiding the encounter becoming deadly. Like so many things in this setting, they can become mutually exclusive.
 
#25 ·
I've actually been approached my three unsavory characters, from three different angles, in the early AM.

I didn't say anything, just turned, eyeballed all of them
and shoved my hand in my pocket with confidence.

The three quietly turned and walked away...
 
#26 ·
I think the right action(s) ALWAYS speak louder than words. Only problem is if your pocket is empty. :whistling: Hopefully, you're good at bluffing.
 
#32 ·
One of the conundrums in stating one can simply shoot the three guys walking towards him is that if none of them are armed, it becomes appreciably more difficult to justify the shooting, and if they are armed it would seem a strong probability that they will return fire which in theory will greatly increase the difficulty in easily hitting all three without getting shot.
 
#34 ·
Shoot all three one shot each COM, then repeat. All three should then be down and out.
I sincerely hope that this was a poor attempt at sarcasm.
I was perfectly serious.
You're gonna need more than 3 guys walking up to you to draw and shoot them. you should read the article written by a LEO, linked in the beginning of the thread.
One of the conundrums in stating one can simply shoot the three guys walking towards him is that if none of them are armed, it becomes appreciably more difficult to justify the shooting, and if they are armed it would seem a strong probability that they will return fire which in theory will greatly increase the difficulty in easily hitting all three without getting shot.
See, this is one of those frightening posts that pop up on the internet every so often. Absolutely nothing given suggests that there is an immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm, but we still have the above. So we're clear:

YOU CAN'T DO THAT ****!

Please rethink your decisions to carry a firearm.
I agree with most everything in the other responses to your post, SCmasterblaster.

In your post, what would the three say or exhibit that would cause you to shoot?

It's important information...
 
#35 ·
I agree with most everything in the other responses to your post, SCmasterblaster.

In your post, what would the three say or exhibit that would cause you to shoot?

It's important information...
A very good question. Arguably, no response to the question might be quite telling.
 
#37 ·
Before you end up on the unpleasant side of prison bars and, in the process, ruin your and your family's financial future for doing what you "think" you're entitled to do versus what the law permits you to do, I would strongly encourage you to take Mas Ayoob's MAG 40 class. It will open your eyes to all you do not know -- as it certainly did my classmates' and mine. All that machismo and BS cowboy talk go out the window when people who don't know suddenly learn the facts. You'll be glad you did. Until then and with all due respect, for your sake, your family's sake, and for the sake of those you might encounter, I strongly second Sam Spade's counsel that you rethink carrying a firearm. Best of luck and best wishes.
 
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