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7.62 VS 5.56 and I Apologize as a newbie.

6K views 74 replies 46 participants last post by  plp 
#1 ·
Got my CCL and all the carry pistols I need...well, I'm refining but have plenty of options and I'm training hard.

Now I'm looking for a Black Rifle....an AR platform to serve me as a training gun and, Gaad Forbid, an Urban/Suburban rifle to get me where my pistols can't take me. I have lot's of UK and European friends who have served and carried/trained with many long guns...they literally laugh at 5.56 as a toy round but they only trained while active and can't own firearms as civilians. Guys locally who have served and fought maintain that a 5.56 platform is superior inside 300 yards and a gunner can carry 2X as many rounds and place them just as accurately.

I have little experience other than shooting at the Farm range with a lot of stuff at various ranges including .50 BMG, .338 Lapua, 5.56mm, 7.62, and others. I'm not an idiot I just need to get into long guns and really wonder/worry if I need a 5.56 or a 7.62 caliber? You guys know, I'm a rube. Please enlighten me and I sincerely apologize for dragging up the eternal debate.

All my UK and German friends tell me if they could own a battle rifle it would be G3, FN-FAL or "other" but in 7.62 NATO format. Here in America 5.56 in an AR platform is King and Queen. Please enlighten me.

And super thanks in advance!

VooDoo
 
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#35 ·
I'd recommend picking up a quality 16" AR15 chambered in 5.56, buy a bunch of mags and M193 ammo and get some trigger time. An AR15 in 5.56 is just a handy rifle with decent capacity an dpower at a decent cost. A round like M193 is not expensive, can do some major damage and can penetrate pretty darn well. Down the road you can pick up something in .308/7.62x51 if you desire. I know money can be tight but having more than one can come in handy. Even if you reload 7.62X51 costs considerably more per round than 5.56.
 
#36 ·
I have quite a few rifles. My main hunting rifles is a single shot Thompson/Center Encore .30-'06 but, mostly to see effectiveness, I have hunted and killed deer with my 5.56x45 AR15. Using 68 grain Winchester hollow points that they market as hog loads. The damage was horrific and laid the deer down permanently with one shot. Seeing this makes me feel like it'd be a great defensive weapon. I still prefer to hunt with my Encore but, if I could have only one rifle, it'd be my main 5.56x45/.223 AR15.

That's not to say I wouldn't want a 7.62x51 AR10 but I can't justify the expense, right now. I do have an AK and a Mini30 (7.62x39 rifles). My objective this coming winter is to take a deer with the Mini30.
 
#37 ·
i am fond of the 7.62x39 round. to me it is the 45acp equivalent of rifle.

there's no denying 5.56x45. it is very proven and I enjoy shooting it past 300 yards much more than the 7.62x39.

i agree w above if it's your first rifle just go with a 5.56 chambered AR. many excellent manufacturers nowadays. i'm sort of loyal to windham weaponry because i feel they make a phenomenal rifle for the price.
 
#39 ·
I have both, but then I also have different uppers which I switch depending on the type of shooting I am doing. The different uppers also have dedicated optics installed.

The AR can accommodate different calibers and different barrel configurations by changing the upper.

For versatility, I would be inclined to get an AR in 5.56 just for the versatility. An AR in 7.62 is very heavy and are not as standardized as the 5.56's. They are also heavy. My 7.62 weighs more than my M1 Garand which is in 30-06.
 
#40 ·
You need to start with the AR platform.
1. the gun is a lot cheaper.
2. the ammo is a lot cheaper.
You can afford to do a lot more training with the AR. The skills you learn with it will translate to the 308. After you have mastered the Ar you can always sell it and upgrade to the 308 if you want more gun. Honestly the difference in ammo cost will save you enough to buy the other gun in a couple of years.
 
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#41 ·
Got a chance to shoot 3 guns yesterday - a Les Baer Custom AR in 5.56 that belongs to my brother who is stricken with a disease that only allows him to buy very expensive guns, A Rock River Arms LAR-15 in CAR length with all kinds of tricked out goodies and a Rock River Arms LAR-8 in a standard A4 config but with a aluminum free float tube fore end. The two RRA guns belong to a Gun Buddy of the same brother that owns the Les Baer. We might have had another choice that belongs to my nephew which is a Springfield armory Standard M1A but he couldn't attend the testing session...I have shot this gun before.

We shot paper at ranges out to 500 yards....both calibers/all the guns were surprisingly accurate in my hands especially the Les Baer. I liked it best of all as it was very tight and perfectly finished *but* I can't see it being worth 2X+ the price. Super nice gun.

The 7.62 gun was spectacular to shoot but it beat on me....I could get used to the extra power and punch at 500 yards but was not mentally prepared for how far away something really is at 500 yards. As has been pointed out, especially here in the Midwest, if I need to engage at this kind of range I'm better to disengage and run/hide if I can. 500 yards in this part of the country is a long way away. And that brings me the next issue that smacked me right in the face - the weight of the ammunition and the sheer size and weight of magazines.

A couple mags 5.56 is nothing. A couple mages of 7.62 is very heavy. I'm 60...in great shape and I can still wrestle and run with "normal" 30 year olds and hold my own but moving/traveling with say 6 mags of 7.62 and the gun? Not for very long, nor very far nor very quickly I won't. In this respect and with this limitation alone I'm gonna pursue 5.56 as the caliber for my entry into SHTF rifles. I might get a 7.62 at some point ('cause I *really* like shooting at 500 yards and hitting stuff!!!) but initially It's an AR platform gun in 5.56.

VooDoo
 
#43 ·
In truth...probably the best thing you can do when you are new to the sport and learning to shoot is to buy a decent quality .22 LR bolt action with aperture sights and learn how to shoot. The fundamentals of rifle marksmanship are the same if you are shooting a .17 HMR or a .50 Barret Sniper Rifle.
 
#44 ·
With the environment being what is, perhaps buy an AR15 and buy an AR10 unfinished lower. If you decide you want to upgrade, you can build it and if not, you should have no problems sellng it should Hitlery get elected.
 
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#45 ·
Like a lot of people here, I have both platforms.
My 5.56 gets most of the range time. Cost is only a partial factor. 5.56 rifles are very fun and easy to shoot. Just last weekend, I took my gf shooting outdoors at 100 yards. She immediately was on target, and by the end of the day she was keeping all her shots inside a head sized target. That would not have happened if she was using my 7.62 rifle, even though it has a much more powerful scope.

It sounds like you can afford pretty much whatever you decide on. I have a RRA, which I like a lot. It is a great rifle for the money. Another great rifle to consider is the LMT Defender. It has interchangeable barrels,and can convert from 5.56 to 300 Blackout in about a minute. Same magazines for each caliber. If you get a chance you might want to check that rifle out.

One more rifle to consider is Daniel Defense. Although full size AR's aren't in style the way shorties are, the V11 Pro is an awesome rifle. There is no muzzle climb at all, because of their muzzle brake, and very smooth recoil because of it's full length gas system. It also has one of the best triggers on any AR, regardless of price.

I hope this doesn't confuse you too much.
 
#46 ·
I'll echo the "please ask" pleasantries.. I have some solid knowledge, but there are things I don't keep up on so I ask on those topics.

Here's the short version on your question: 5.56/ .223 is cheaper and tends to be more accurate (Def AR more accurate than standard AK at distance) and is more plentiful in a "disaster" scenario (cops, soldiers, people all have it).

.30cal (7.62) is a solid ass kicking round. A .223 can deflect of branches where a .30cal wil go through. 30cal is tactically superior, but you need to have the ammo for it. And w/ many new designs (HCAR for one) there are more accurate variants these days.

So if I had a chunk of $ at my disposal and wanted to secure a rural property in SHTF scenario I would outfit people w/ .223s, and for every 2 AR's I would have a 30cal. The ar's do your defensive posts and if you were hit then you bring up the 30cals as counter assault pieces...in light of not being able to have actual machine guns (and the medium machine guns are .30cal) a .30cal rifle is next best.

So there's the basic info as well as practical applications.
 
#47 ·
First rifle? 5.56. It is MUCH easier and cheaper to shoot - less, recoil, cheaper rifles, cheaper magazines and cheaper ammo - and if it's your first you're going to need a lot of training and practice.
 
#51 ·
7.62x39 is all you need for an urban survival rifle.

You're not going to be engaging targets more than 200 yards away... Probably not more than 100 yards.

7.62x39 is a much better penetrator and can actually degrade cover. It's easier to shoot than 7.62x51.

It's also a lot cheaper to shoot than either 5.56 or 7.62x51. You can get it for about $200/1000 rounds.

It's not as accurate as 5.56, but at the ranges you're shooting it's not going to be significantly different.
 
#52 ·
Most people suggesting a 5.56 would shoot cheap XM-193 or similar. That is not a very accurate combo.

If I was in a SHTF situation I would try not to walk in to any situations where spray and pray is a viable strategy. I might walk myself in to a situation where I can pick off some people while staying out of the range of return fire.

A 7.62*51 AR doesn't stand out in any way but a 6.5 Creedmoor AR does.

Mine is big and heavy but it can make a 1,000 yard shot with enough energy to wound at that range and won't beat up the shooter.

Box ammo is comparable in price to .308 Federal Gold Medal Match, reloading is essentially the same.

If you are going to carry a big heavy rifle, nice ammo and long shots make sense, 6.5 Creedmoor is better at that.

Of course I have all three and more.
 
#53 ·
I'm biased because I have always chosen 7.62. Not in just cheap AK style rifles but rifles that cost much more also. For me, the choice is between x39 and x51. Plenty of choices for high quality rifles in both. Cheap, plentiful ammo for breaking them in and just blasting and quality ammo available for target shooting and SD.
 
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#54 · (Edited)
If you can only have one, then a 5.56 is fine. You know your environment should a SHTF and can decide if you need more gun or not, if you are staying or bugging out, how much gear you can pack, etc.

I have several residences. In one, the farthest clear field of fire I have is about 200 yards. In those instances, a 5.56 or 7.62 is adequate.

In another location, my clear field of fire goes to almost 1,000 yards. Then it's 300mag, 7.62, and 30-06 or larger. But, that is based on my taking a defensive position and staying in place. I would hate to lug a 338 Lapua and ammunition around. Or a Barrett 50 or 416. If I was moving, then it would be something lighter and with lots of ammo.
 
#55 ·
At 2300 rounds, my .308 AR has been an absolutely outstansing gun, and far more versatile than I expected. For example, it is actually kinda my wife's gun now (her assertion), and we keep some 110gr bullets loaded to about 2500-2600fps in a 25rd mag for HD (basically somewhere between a .300 blk and 6.8spc).

That said, if I could do it all over again, I might have likely gone 5.56, or perhaps 6.8spc or even .277 Wolverine. I have always been a "big bore" kinda guy (.44s, .45 Rowlands, 12g, .308s, etc), but I recognize for most of my uses the 5.56 is totally adequate, and those two 6.8mm variants are just that much better (though at considerably higher minimum loading costs).

Really, however, at this point it simply isn't worth the expense of getting into a 5.56 when I have so much into my well-proven .308 setup.

Still, if you want my recommendation, it would be to stick with the regular AR platform, likely a 5.56, ESPECIALLY if you don't need it for hunting.
 
#56 ·
There is a legitimate reason the military has embraced the 5.56 round and the AR platform. I may be simply misinformed, but I'm not aware that any of our NATO allies have made widespread use of the 7.62 round in a very long time (since we were using the M-14?) Where, exactly, were these European friends using the older round? I realize we use the 7.62 for sniping currently, but that's not what the common soldier is issued, and, again, there is sound doctrine behind that decision.
If what you want is a defensive weapon that lets you get the hell out of Dodge, then you want a 5.56. More rounds, easier to shoot, easier to train with, lighter,handier, and effective.
I can, and have, reload 5.56. Reloading bottleneck cartridges is a huge PITA, requiring lubing, sizing and trimming; it's a lot more trouble than handgun rounds. I keep the option, but currently I buy good ammo when it's available. Also, don't be in a hellfire hurry to use reloads, at least initially. It adds one more variable when you are trying to shake out a new platform. Did the gun malf due to a problem, or was it ammo related?
Don't think this to death; get a quality AR in 5.56 and shoot the snot out of it. Then, if you really have to have more gun, go buy it. You're overthinking this; for a newb especially, the smaller caliber is the way to go.
Moon
 
#57 ·
Its a good question. Both have positives, negatives. If I was younger I would look hard at 308. I will always regret not getting a HK 91 in late 70s,.
With cost/ weight, cost ammo.... I would get AR. Then consider a 308/other 30cal (maybe your wife/kid would then take AR?) or leave one at farm? IF SHTF its very possible you will have to dump what yo have on you.
Had neighbor who owned factory in WWII He was a Jew. He was told the state was taking over his factory. He agreed that was good. Walked away, got out of country with cloths on his back. Others went back for money, pics, keepsakes. Never heard from again.
 
#58 ·
A General Purpose/Battle Rifle to consider would be the Springfield M1A. It will provide a good deal more penetration and stopping power beyond that of the AR-15 pattern.
 
#60 ·
I shot my nephews Springer M1A yesterday...great gun. Hammers stuff out beyond 500 yards like it is made for it. But seriously, I'm 60+. Carrying this gun as a SHTF rifle with 6 mags? I'd be begging to be put out of my misery in 2 miles.

Carrying this gun and ammo to feed it is simply not realistic for a man my age. I have feelers out on several 5.56 RIA LAR-15 guns that weigh half what this gun weighs. Love the gun. It's not practical for my needs.

VooDoo
 
#75 ·
For your situation, I'd say get a 5.56 AR. As you say, we seasoned citizens know we ain't humping a bunch of gear for very long, or very far, or very fast. I carry a bunch of work gear every day and know how much more difficult it is at 56 then it was at 46.

For a semi auto battle rifle it is the obvious choice.

I would also recommend getting a .308 bolt action. Less weight than an AR10, cheaper, and a bit more accurate if we are going to generalize. A Savage Model 10 is going to set you back about 600 bucks, with a good scope will handle any long distance needs commensurate with your abilities.

For my area of heavy brush and shorter ranges, I chose an AK in 7.62x39 with a red dot sight. Yes, the rifle is heavier, the ammo is heavier, but is the best of both worlds.
 
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#59 ·
Buy one of each.
Yep. That's the obvious solution.

Another factor is, .308 ammo is going to cost you around 2x as much as .223. Really, for urban (2-legged) threats, an AR in 5.56/.223 is going to be fine, especially inside ~100yds where you're likely to get good fragmentation with "inexpensive" M193. If you want longer range or something that can be used to humanely put down pretty much anything indigenous to North America, an AR in .308 isn't a bad option.

Unlike their smaller cousins, .308 AR-types have a number of competing standards, and depending on what you buy, you may be mostly locked into using only that manufacturer's parts or aftermarket parts specifically made for it.

If we end up with President Hillary, expect the run to end all runs on guns and ammo. I suspect at that point, if you don't already have an AR in .308, you won't be able to find one for quite some time.
 
#61 ·
As a lightweight SHTF rifle, another interesting option is the M1 carbine. .30 caliber, but lighter ammo, more like .223. It's a light/small rifle that handles and recoils more like a .22lr than a "battle rifle". 110gr JSP at 2000fps should be effective against 2 legged and many (not all) 4 legged creatures. They, and their ammo, aren't as cheap as they once were (but what is?)...and availability of good quality magazines is questionable. The really good ones have been out of production for decades. Not as accurate as an AR...but not as inaccurate as some of the stories claim. They're fun guns and much cheaper than most .308 AR-types. Brass isn't as available for reloading as it is for .223 and .308. :(
 
#62 ·
You gave a lot of reasons not to get one. It would be nice to have one to add to a collection of US battle rifles...before they too are outlawed for having an evil detachable magazine over 10 rounds.
 
#64 ·
I got a couple of them from the CMP when the Italians went on sale around 8-10 years ago. They're fun to shoot, and not hard to reload for.
njl, tell me a little more about reloading this round. Does it involve lubing cases/trimming as is necessary with bottleneck rounds, or is it as easy as straightwall pistol rounds? A buddy is hot to trot for one of these, and of course it is possible to buy ammo, but it would be nice to be able to feed it.
Thnx,
Moon
 
#65 ·
It is a rifle round and not quite straight walled, so you do need to lube (even with a carbide sizing die) and will likely need to trim. Nearly all the brass I've loaded has been my own once fired Aguila, and has needed trimming. I use Remington 110gr JSP, and get better groups than the original Aguila rounds. The Aguila brass, while it doesn't exactly look crimped, has needed the primer pockets swaged to be more easily primed.
 
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